"You will not surely die."

[Rose]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

 

[GeneZ]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

There was no need for any concept for salvation.
Why should there be?

For Adam and the woman were without sin until after they ate.
That concept of any kind of death would have been completely foreign to them.

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

Satan in his limited understanding thought if he could get them to eat of the wrong fruit?
That he would be rid of man and have dominion over the new earth for himself....

But?

When the woman and Adam ate?
A new type of death was being introduced.
"Spiritual death."

God was teaching the angels something new, and something that man was to eventually need to comprehend.

grace and peace ........

 

[David]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

No. The serpent was not teaching a salvation doctrine. He was attacking the authority of God’s Word.

God had already spoken plainly: “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” ~Genesis 2:17. No mystery. No symbolism. God drew a clear line between obedience and death.

Then the serpent stepped in and did what deception always does. He did not deny God existed. He did not deny the command was given. He simply rewrote the consequence: “Ye shall not surely die” ~Genesis 3:4.

That was humanity’s first collision between God’s Word and a competing voice.

Understand what happened in that moment. The issue was never fruit. The issue was authority. Would man trust what God said, or trust a voice promising safety while walking into disobedience?

Genesis 3 is not about OSAS because salvation had not yet entered the story. No one needed redemption before sin. The serpent was not explaining eternal security. He was denying divine judgment altogether.

But here is where the warning reaches us.

The strategy of the enemy has never changed. God says sin brings death: “the wages of sin is death” ~Romans 6:23. Deception answers, “You’ll be fine.” God calls for repentance. The lie offers reassurance without obedience. God warns. The lie comforts rebellion.

That is the same old whisper dressed in new language.

Scripture never separates assurance from abiding faith. Jesus said, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch” ~John 15:6. Hebrews warns, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” ~Hebrews 3:12. The Bible does not soothe people into complacency. It calls them to continue trusting and walking with God.

So no, Genesis 3 is not an early debate about eternal security. It is something more foundational. It is the first recorded moment when a creature told humanity that God’s warning did not really mean what God said.

And every generation faces the same choice Adam and Eve faced: believe God as He speaks, or believe the voice that makes disobedience feel safe.

 

[David]

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

Satan in his limited understanding thought if he could get them to eat of the wrong fruit?
That he would be rid of man and have dominion over the new earth for himself....

Scripture never mentions a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God instructing angels through the fall. The Bible only tells us that God warned Adam about death ~Genesis 2:17, the serpent denied God’s word ~Genesis 3:4, and death entered through sin ~Romans 5:12. Where Scripture is silent, we should be silent.

 

[GeneZ]

Scripture never mentions a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God instructing angels through the fall. The Bible only tells us that God warned Adam about death ~Genesis 2:17, the serpent denied God’s word ~Genesis 3:4, and death entered through sin ~Romans 5:12. Where Scripture is silent, we should be silent.

Never mentions?
Or, never indicates?

It was nice visiting here...

 

[David]

Never mentions?
Or, never indicates?

It was nice visiting here...

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence.

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

What Scripture actually says is plain:

God warned man, not angels, about death: “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” ~Genesis 2:17.

The serpent contradicted God’s word: “Ye shall not surely die” ~Genesis 3:4.

Death entered the human world through sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12.

Those are stated facts of the text.

Biblical teaching must come from what is written, not from possibilities we imagine between the lines. Scripture warns us “not to think of men above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

So yes, never mentions and never indicates both apply. If God intended us to believe those things, He would have revealed them.

 

[GeneZ]

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

 

[bobinfaith]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence. Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas. What Scripture actually says is plain:

Good morning, Rose;

You ask a question that many times my wife and I have asked, reflected (our past conversion when we gave our lives to Jesus,) pondered (future directions we believe God has taken us) and discuss where we are today in our faith and marriage.

At times she and I attempted to "rewrite the Bible" by using personal consolations (making a way out of our mistakes) to this OSAS. But we learned God's Word is very straight up when we try to reason with God.

Woe to the world who attempt to add "anything" to it.

The serpent's assurance to Adam and Eve, "Surely you will not die" reference Genesis 3:4 is an example of OSAS. It's taken out of Biblical context and that's where our own reasoning comes in.

Again, let the world beware, to those who attempt to add "anything" to God's Word.

Once Saved Always Saved is a very debatable topic amongst Christians, however, God sees the ulterior motive in the heart instead of complete discipline - obedience, God's correction, when to avoid disobedience, spiritual maturity, a grateful heart to our salvation and more.

God bless you, Rose, and your entire family.

Bob

 

[David]

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

If by “wrong forum” you mean a forum where claims are tested by Scripture, then yes, that is exactly what Biblical Truth Forum is meant to be.

This isn’t about forcing agreement or pushing people away. It’s about the standard. God’s Word says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. So here, ideas are weighed by Scripture, not protected from examination.

You said I’m wrong, but no passage has been shown that teaches these ideas. Scripture warns us “not to think… above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6. That boundary applies to all of us equally.

You are welcome to participate, disagree, and present your case. But the expectation is simple: doctrine must come from the Bible itself. If Scripture teaches it, show the text. If it does not, then we should not present it as biblical truth.

That is not exclusion. That is submission to God’s Word.

 

[GeneZ]

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence.

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.

Genesis 1:2? Amplified translation...

The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Seems benign. Yes?

Then why did Jeremiah use Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew as a threat to the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy as a nation?

Jeremiah 4:6-8 was the warm-up of God's judgment about to come upon them.

6​

Raise the signal to go to Zion!​

Flee for safety without delay!​

For I am bringing disaster from the north,​

even terrible destruction.”​

​

7​

A lion has come out of his lair;​

a destroyer of nations has set out.​

He has left his place​

to lay waste your land.​

Your towns will lie in ruins​

without inhabitant.​

8​

So put on sackcloth,​

lament and wail,​

for the fierce anger of the Lord​

has not turned away from us.​

Israel was about to be ripped apart by God!
For they had been going off to the high places to perform pagan sex orgies and child sacrifice.

And, the Jews knew the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2. They knew it indicated utter destruction of all life. The prehistoric world ended that way. Where do we find that?
Right here!

22​

“My people are fools;​

they do not know me.​

They are senseless children;​

they have no understanding.​

They are skilled in doing evil;​

they know not how to do good.”​

23​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; (Genesis 1:2!)​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

24​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

25​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

26​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

Jeremiah 4:23 was almost a direct quote of Genesis 1:2!
"Tohu wabohu"...
Meaning an utter destruction and wreak and havoc of the land!

That was what Genesis 1:2 meant in the Hebrew to the Jews.
Not some flowery translation. "Void and empty."

It was so bad in Genesis 1:2, that Jeremiah had to add something to tell them that their fate will not be like the one of the first creation. Right here in verse 27, Jeremiah makes that known to the Jews.

27 This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew spoke of an utter destruction!
The Jews who spoke Hebrew knew it.

So, Jeremiah had to add that they would not be utterly destroyed in the same way
as found in Genesis 1:2.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

 

[David]

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

The problem here is not Hebrew vocabulary. The problem is context.

Jeremiah is not teaching that Genesis 1:2 describes a destroyed prehistoric world. He is using creation language as prophetic imagery of judgment. Scripture itself explains this if we simply read the passage carefully.

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:2.

Nothing in the text says judgment happened. Nothing says destruction occurred. Nothing says a previous world existed. The verse describes the initial unformed state of creation before God ordered it.

Now look at Jeremiah.Jeremiah is delivering a prophetic vision of Judah’s coming judgment. Notice how the prophet repeatedly says, “I looked…” (~Jeremiah 4:23–26). This is prophetic imagery, not a historical retelling of Genesis.

“I looked at the earth, and, behold, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light” ~Jeremiah 4:23.

Jeremiah deliberately reverses the creation order:

• light removed (Genesis 1:3 reversed)
• land undone (Genesis 1:9–10 reversed)
• birds gone (Genesis 1:20 reversed)
• people absent (Genesis 1:26 reversed)

He is describing de-creation, not pre-creation.

The point is simple: Israel’s sin would bring the land back into chaos, symbolically undoing creation blessings. The prophets regularly use creation imagery this way. Isaiah does the same when describing judgment: “the earth shall be utterly broken down” ~Isaiah 24:19.

This is prophetic poetry communicating devastation, not geology or a lost civilization.

If Genesis 1:2 meant a destroyed world, Scripture would say so somewhere else. But instead Scripture consistently teaches:

“In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11.

Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Death also enters the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world full of destruction and death before Adam directly contradicts this clear teaching.

So Jeremiah does not interpret Genesis 1:2 as destruction. He borrows Genesis language to warn that sin brings chaos resembling an uncreated world.

Scripture interprets Scripture. And when it does, the conclusion is straightforward:

Genesis 1:2 describes creation before order, not a judgment after a lost world. Jeremiah uses that imagery as a warning, not as evidence of prehistory.

Where Scripture is silent about a prehistoric civilization, we must remain silent too.

 

[GeneZ]

The problem here is not Hebrew vocabulary. The problem is context.

Jeremiah is not teaching that Genesis 1:2 describes a destroyed prehistoric world. He is using creation language as prophetic imagery of judgment. Scripture itself explains this if we simply read the passage carefully.

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:2.

Nothing in the text says judgment happened. Nothing says destruction occurred. Nothing says a previous world existed. The verse describes the initial unformed state of creation before God ordered it.

Now look at Jeremiah.Jeremiah is delivering a prophetic vision of Judah’s coming judgment. Notice how the prophet repeatedly says, “I looked…” (~Jeremiah 4:23–26). This is prophetic imagery, not a historical retelling of Genesis.

“I looked at the earth, and, behold, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light” ~Jeremiah 4:23.

Jeremiah deliberately reverses the creation order:

• light removed (Genesis 1:3 reversed)
• land undone (Genesis 1:9–10 reversed)
• birds gone (Genesis 1:20 reversed)
• people absent (Genesis 1:26 reversed)

He is describing de-creation, not pre-creation.

The point is simple: Israel’s sin would bring the land back into chaos, symbolically undoing creation blessings. The prophets regularly use creation imagery this way. Isaiah does the same when describing judgment: “the earth shall be utterly broken down” ~Isaiah 24:19.

This is prophetic poetry communicating devastation, not geology or a lost civilization.

If Genesis 1:2 meant a destroyed world, Scripture would say so somewhere else. But instead Scripture consistently teaches:

“In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11.

Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Death also enters the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world full of destruction and death before Adam directly contradicts this clear teaching.

So Jeremiah does not interpret Genesis 1:2 as destruction. He borrows Genesis language to warn that sin brings chaos resembling an uncreated world.

Scripture interprets Scripture. And when it does, the conclusion is straightforward:

Genesis 1:2 describes creation before order, not a judgment after a lost world. Jeremiah uses that imagery as a warning, not as evidence of prehistory.

Where Scripture is silent about a prehistoric civilization, we must remain silent too.

Good bye, David....

Enjoy your pedestal.

 

[Rose]

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

 

[David]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

If you're asking, “Does the ‘And’ at the start of Genesis 1:2 indicate that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2?”

No. The “And” at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 does not indicate that some catastrophe occurred between verse 1 and verse 2. That idea is imposed on the text. It is not drawn from it.

Genesis reads: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:1–2.

The Hebrew word translated “And” is the common conjunction waw. It is used constantly in Hebrew narrative simply to continue the description of what is happening. It does not introduce a gap, a judgment, or a destroyed world. In this case, verse 2 is explaining the initial condition of the earth at the moment of creation. The earth had not yet been shaped or filled. It was “without form and void,” meaning unformed and uninhabited. The six days that follow describe how God ordered what He had created.

Nothing in the text suggests ruin or reconstruction. There is no language of judgment, no reference to destruction, and no indication of a previous world. Those ideas are imported into the passage. The text itself simply describes the earth before God formed the land, produced light, and filled the world with life.

Scripture also confirms this reading elsewhere. God says plainly, “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11. Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Furthermore, Scripture teaches that death entered the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching.

So the “And” in Genesis 1:2 is simply a continuation of the creation account. Verse 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the earth’s initial unformed condition before God shaped and filled it during the six days of creation. The text is straightforward when we allow Scripture to speak for itself.

 

[GeneZ]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

You are knocking on a door that has only been painted upon a wall.
It will not open.

Jeremiah 4:23-27 describes what was found in Genesis 1:2.
But, does that matter to some?
They will always find a way to deny and argue.
Argue and deny...

Jeremiah 4:23-27​

​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; [Genesis 1:2]​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

​

This is what the Lord says: ​

[NOTE!]​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely."​

Why did Jeremiah find need to add verse 27?
It was to let the Jews know that what they were to face would not be exactly like what the Hebrew said happened in Genesis 1:2. That, they, (Jews) unlike the first creation, will not be utterly destroyed!



It is amazing how good answers are contained in the Bible.
Answers, that religious closed-minded souls scramble to hide and obscure, as if it were their duty to do so.

The understanding I have presented about Genesis 1:2 (in part) is what is called the GAP theory.
For some reason... It frightens religious souls.

God wants us to be spiritual. Not religious.
To think and breathe with righteous understanding.

Religious types are what had Christ crucified.
Now, they crucify the Word of God when they can.

For, He is the Word of God!

 

[Yesua888]

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

GeneZ,
Where do you get this information please? Thanks : )

 

[Rose]

If you're asking, “Does the ‘And’ at the start of Genesis 1:2 indicate that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2?”

No. The “And” at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 does not indicate that some catastrophe occurred between verse 1 and verse 2. That idea is imposed on the text. It is not drawn from it.

Genesis reads: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:1–2.

The Hebrew word translated “And” is the common conjunction waw. It is used constantly in Hebrew narrative simply to continue the description of what is happening. It does not introduce a gap, a judgment, or a destroyed world. In this case, verse 2 is explaining the initial condition of the earth at the moment of creation. The earth had not yet been shaped or filled. It was “without form and void,” meaning unformed and uninhabited. The six days that follow describe how God ordered what He had created.

Nothing in the text suggests ruin or reconstruction. There is no language of judgment, no reference to destruction, and no indication of a previous world. Those ideas are imported into the passage. The text itself simply describes the earth before God formed the land, produced light, and filled the world with life.

Scripture also confirms this reading elsewhere. God says plainly, “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11. Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Furthermore, Scripture teaches that death entered the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching.

So the “And” in Genesis 1:2 is simply a continuation of the creation account. Verse 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the earth’s initial unformed condition before God shaped and filled it during the six days of creation. The text is straightforward when we allow Scripture to speak for itself.

Sorry, David. My post was intended for GeneZ. I already learned that the "And" in Gen 1:2 is a continuation of the creation account, that there was no gap theory. But I did learn something new from you - A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching from Rom. 5:12. Thanks a lot.

Rose

 

[Yesua888]

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

GeneZ,
Can you actually back up anything that you say?
This site is for Biblical Truth, found in Scripture ... that is the backing, we reamaining here, rely on. We seek Truth.
Sorry if you cannot see this, as it is quite simple really, we are here to learn Biblical Truth
All the best

 

[Yesua888]

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.

Genesis 1:2? Amplified translation...

The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Seems benign. Yes?

Then why did Jeremiah use Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew as a threat to the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy as a nation?

Jeremiah 4:6-8 was the warm-up of God's judgment about to come upon them.

6​

Raise the signal to go to Zion!​

Flee for safety without delay!​

For I am bringing disaster from the north,​

even terrible destruction.”​

​

7​

A lion has come out of his lair;​

a destroyer of nations has set out.​

He has left his place​

to lay waste your land.​

Your towns will lie in ruins​

without inhabitant.​

8​

So put on sackcloth,​

lament and wail,​

for the fierce anger of the Lord​

has not turned away from us.​

Israel was about to be ripped apart by God!
For they had been going off to the high places to perform pagan sex orgies and child sacrifice.

And, the Jews knew the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2. They knew it indicated utter destruction of all life. The prehistoric world ended that way. Where do we find that?
Right here!

22​

“My people are fools;​

they do not know me.​

They are senseless children;​

they have no understanding.​

They are skilled in doing evil;​

they know not how to do good.”​

23​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; (Genesis 1:2!)​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

24​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

25​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

26​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

Jeremiah 4:23 was almost a direct quote of Genesis 1:2!
"Tohu wabohu"...
Meaning an utter destruction and wreak and havoc of the land!

That was what Genesis 1:2 meant in the Hebrew to the Jews.
Not some flowery translation. "Void and empty."

It was so bad in Genesis 1:2, that Jeremiah had to add something to tell them that their fate will not be like the one of the first creation. Right here in verse 27, Jeremiah makes that known to the Jews.

27 This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew spoke of an utter destruction!
The Jews who spoke Hebrew knew it.

So, Jeremiah had to add that they would not be utterly destroyed in the same way
as found in Genesis 1:2.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

Hi Gene Z,
Sorry I am not convinced about the "previous world of dinosaurs" ... is this an added interpretation?
Just trying to follow and understand : ) tks

 

[Yesua888]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

Hi Rose, what do you mean about "And"?

 

[Rose]

Hi Rose, what do you mean about "And"?

So the “And” in Genesis 1:2 is simply a continuation of the creation account. Verse 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the earth’s initial unformed condition before God shaped and filled it during the six days of creation.

"And" points out that v2 is the continuation of v1. There is no gap in the creation.

 

[GeneZ]

GeneZ,
Where do you get this information please? Thanks : )

Here is an excellent reference online to see the outline of what I am dealing with.

Link -- Without Form and Void - Frontpage

 

[GeneZ]

"And" points out that v2 is the continuation of v1. There is no gap in the creation.

According to the Revised Edition of Chambers's Encyclopedia​

published in 1860, under the heading "Genesis", the view which was​

then being popularized by Buckland and others to the effect that an​

interval of unknown duration was to be interposed between Gen. 1.1​

and 1.2 was already to be found in the Midrash. ​

​

In his great work, The Legends of the Jews, Louis Ginsberg has put into continuous​

narrative a precis of their legends, as far as possible in the original phrases and terms. ​

​

In Volume 1 which covers the period from the Creation to Jacob, ​

he has this excerpt on Genesis 1:​

​

"Nor is this world inhabited by man the first of things​

earthly created by God. He made several other worlds​

before ours, but He destroyed them all, because He was​

pleased with none until He created ours."​

​

Clearly this reflects the tradition under lying the translation which​

appears in the Targum of Onkelos to be noted below.​

​

Furthermore, in the Massoretic Text in which the Jewish scholars​

tried to incorporate enough "indicators" to guide the reader as to​

correct punctuation there is one small mark which is technically​

known as Rebhia which is classified as a "disjunctive accent" in-tended ​

to notify the reader that he should pause before proceeding to the next verse.​

​

In short, this mark indicates a "break" in the text.​

Such a mark appears at the end of Genesis 1.1. ​

This mark has been noted by several scholars including Luther. ​

​

It is one indication among others, that the initial waw ( View attachment 325 ) which introduces verse 2​

should be rendered "but" rather than "and", a dis-junctive rather than a con-junctive.​

​

Without Form and Void - Chapter 1​

 

[GeneZ]

Sorry, David. My post was intended for GeneZ. I already learned that the "And" in Gen 1:2 is a continuation of the creation account, that there was no gap theory. But I did learn something new from you - A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching from Rom. 5:12. Thanks a lot.

Rose

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Rom 5:12​

That is not speaking of the planet, nor life outside the known human race.
It is designated to the state of mankind as we now know it.
When Adam fell the angels did not fall.
Likewise, other worlds do not pertain to Romans 5:12.

 

[David]

Here is an excellent reference online to see the outline of what I am dealing with.

Link -- Without Form and Void - Frontpage

GeneZ, the issue is not whether someone can write a detailed theory. The question is whether Scripture actually teaches it. Genesis simply says, “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:2. The passage describes the condition of the earth at the beginning of creation. It does not say the earth became ruined or that a previous world was destroyed.

The theory in the article inserts a catastrophe and a prehistoric world between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, but the text itself never states that. When we read the chapter straight through, God forms and fills what was initially unformed and empty.

There is also another problem. Scripture connects the entrance of death to Adam’s sin: “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. Placing death and destruction before Adam contradicts that statement.

So while the article may be interesting as speculation, it goes beyond what the text actually says. The safer approach is to stay with what Scripture clearly states and not build doctrine on ideas the passage never mentions.

 

[David]

In short, this mark indicates a "break" in the text.Such a mark appears at the end of Genesis 1.1. This mark has been noted by several scholars including Luther. It is one indication among others, that the initial waw (

) which introduces verse 2should be rendered "but" rather than "and", a dis-junctive rather than a con-junctive.

GeneZ, appealing to Midrash, Jewish legends, encyclopedias, or later scholarly opinions does not establish the meaning of Genesis. Those sources are not the authority. Scripture is.

Paul warned believers not to build doctrine on traditions and stories outside the Word: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith” ~1 Timothy 1:4. The Midrash material you quoted about God creating and destroying earlier worlds falls exactly into that category. It is Jewish legend, not biblical revelation.

The same applies to Masoretic accent marks. Those were added many centuries after the text was written as reading aids. They are not part of the inspired Hebrew given through Moses, so they cannot be used to establish doctrine or reinterpret the verse.

So citing legends, encyclopedias, or punctuation traditions does not advance the argument. The only question that matters is what the inspired text itself states. If a claim depends on sources outside Scripture to support it, that should immediately make us cautious. The Word of God stands on its own authority.

 

[GeneZ]

There is also another problem. Scripture connects the entrance of death to Adam’s sin: “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. Placing death and destruction before Adam contradicts that statement.

So the serpent (who was possessed) was not tainted with sin until Adam sinned?
For sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned. Romans 5:12.

According to your truncated logic?
That would have to be the case.

How can anyone reason with you?

 

[David]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Rom 5:12
That is not speaking of the planet, nor life outside the known human race.
It is designated to the state of mankind as we now know it.
When Adam fell the angels did not fall.
Likewise, other worlds do not pertain to Romans 5:12.

GeneZ, Romans 5:12 does not limit the entrance of death to the human race alone. The verse says plainly, “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. The word used there is the world into which Adam was placed, the created order he was given dominion over. Scripture does not speak of separate inhabited worlds outside that order.

The passage then continues the same line of thought: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” ~1 Corinthians 15:21-22. The argument is simple and direct. Death enters through Adam. Resurrection comes through Christ. Introducing other worlds or unrelated realms breaks the point Paul is making.

You also mentioned angels. Scripture actually confirms that angels did not fall through Adam, but that does not support the idea of other worlds. Angels are a separate order of creation. “The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” ~Jude 1:6. Their fall is described independently, not tied to some destroyed world before Genesis.

The idea of multiple inhabited worlds or previous creations being destroyed simply does not appear in the text. Scripture consistently points to one creation, one fall through Adam, and one redemption through Christ. When the Word speaks so plainly, adding other worlds or earlier civilizations moves beyond what God has revealed.

 

[David]

So the serpent (who was possessed) was not tainted with sin until Adam sinned?
For sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned. Romans 5:12.

According to your truncated logic?
That would have to be the case.

How can anyone reason with you?

GeneZ, reasoning together is not difficult when both sides stay with what Scripture actually says. The problem arises when the discussion keeps moving outside the text. Romans 5 is not addressing when Satan first sinned. Paul is explaining how sin and death entered the human world through Adam. That is the subject of the whole section. “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. The point Paul presses is that death came through Adam, just as life comes through Christ.

Scripture already shows the serpent acting in rebellion when he tempted Eve. God said to him, “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle” ~Genesis 3:14. Other passages confirm that angels sinned: “God spared not the angels that sinned” ~2 Peter 2:4, and “The angels which kept not their first estate” ~Jude 1:6. So the Bible does speak of angelic rebellion, but it never places that rebellion inside a destroyed prehistoric world or between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

And this goes directly to the point I made earlier: I do not reason from men’s opinions because men are not God. That is exactly why Midrash, legends, encyclopedias, and scholarly theories cannot determine the meaning of Genesis. Scripture itself warns, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” ~Colossians 2:8.

So the way to reason together is straightforward. Open the passage and read what it actually says. If the idea is in the text, we accept it. If it is not in the text, we should not build doctrine on it. The Bereans were called noble because they tested everything by the Scriptures: “They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” ~Acts 17:11. When we stay there, the discussion remains anchored in what God has actually revealed.

 

[GeneZ]

GeneZ, Romans 5:12 does not limit the entrance of death to the human race alone. The verse says plainly, “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. The word used there is the world into which Adam was placed, the created order he was given dominion over. Scripture does not speak of separate inhabited worlds outside that order.

The passage then continues the same line of thought: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” ~1 Corinthians 15:21-22. The argument is simple and direct. Death enters through Adam. Resurrection comes through Christ. Introducing other worlds or unrelated realms breaks the point Paul is making.

You also mentioned angels. Scripture actually confirms that angels did not fall through Adam, but that does not support the idea of other worlds. Angels are a separate order of creation. “The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” ~Jude 1:6. Their fall is described independently, not tied to some destroyed world before Genesis.

The idea of multiple inhabited worlds or previous creations being destroyed simply does not appear in the text. Scripture consistently points to one creation, one fall through Adam, and one redemption through Christ. When the Word speaks so plainly, adding other worlds or earlier civilizations moves beyond what God has revealed.

Where does it say we are the only world that God has ever created on this earth?
After all...
God says he is going and to create a new heavens and earth in the future!

Isaiah 65:17

See, I will create​

new heavens and a new earth.​

The former things will not be remembered,​

nor will they come to mind.​

See that?
When God creates a new heavens and earth?
What happens afterward?

The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

Who remembers the dinosaurs?
You? Who?
Who remembers to prehistoric plant life?
You? Who?

The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

See how God does things!?

God wanted us at the right time to discover a previous created world.
It is why God gave us scientists.
Otherwise, no one would be the wiser.

It is ignorance and the fear that religion instills, that feels it is its duty to suppress truth that was not known before its discovery done in God's timing!
Christianity is not a religion. It is the way to live the spiritual life in relation to God through Christ.

Isaiah 65:17​

​

​

See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.​

The former things will not be remembered,​

nor will they come to mind!​

​

​

​

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid.​

​

Proverbs 12:1​

.......

 

[Yesua888]

So the serpent (who was possessed) was not tainted with sin until Adam sinned?
For sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned. Romans 5:12.

According to your truncated logic?
That would have to be the case.

How can anyone reason with you?

Hi GeneZ,

You may label us as David's puppets, and under his Spell?
We are NOT, we are Lovers of Jesus Christ!
We are here to find out more about our God!

I see you as being "unreasonable" and determined to search for loop holes, in Scripture?
You refuse to see "reason" ... stop and think about this for a moment!

If you are "open-minded" you would see that David is bringing in Scripture to back up what he is saying, and to support the argument.

Is what you are saying a "projection" of where you are at right now?

Matthew 7:3–5 directly confronts this issue:
"Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

The serpent fell from heaven with his angels before the Foundation of the Earth!

The reason we are here is to learn what Scripture actually tells us; to learn the Bible.
We are not David's shadow ... we want the Truth, don't you?
We, INCLUDING David, are following our God, and want to know Him!

We are not here to bring in other worldly points of view ... "Biblical Truth Forum" is true to it's mission.

• Satan’s fall occurred before humanity: The serpent in Genesis 3 is identified in Revelation 12:9 as "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world." This identification, combined with Revelation 12:7–9, describes a war in heaven where Satan and his angels were cast out. The timing of this fall is generally understood to be before the creation of Adam and Eve, and thus before the foundation of the Earth.
• Cause of fall: Satan’s rebellion was rooted in pride and self-exaltation. Isaiah 14:12–14 and Ezekiel 28:17 describe his desire to ascend above God, take God’s throne, and be like the Most High—actions that led to his expulsion from heaven.

David has been more than Graceful with his answers, and does a lot of work to convince us to stay on the truthful path.

I understand your curiosity, and that is probably why you are here - "to see what the 'brainwashed Christians' are up to?

Most of us started where you are now, and hopefully you will grow to want to learn the Truth?

Take care

 

[GeneZ]

Hi GeneZ,

You may label as David's puppets, and under his Spell?
We are NOT, we are Lovers of Jesus Christ!
We are here to find out more about our God!

One lesson I have learned.

Do not try to correct someone who has a serious comprehension problem.
Yet...

I never said what you claim I did.

Have a nice Day!

 

[Yesua888]

projection?

 

[bobinfaith]

Never mentions? Or, never indicates? It was nice visiting here...

That is where you are wrong. And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how. If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother. It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

I will give it one more shot...

So the serpent (who was possessed) was not tainted with sin until Adam sinned? For sin did not enter the world until Adam sinned. Romans 5:12.
According to your truncated logic? That would have to be the case. How can anyone reason with you?

One lesson I have learned. Do not try to correct someone who has a serious comprehension problem.
Yet...I never said what you claim I did. Have a nice Day!

Hello GeneZ;

Let's put aside our fellowship discussion for a moment and take a step back. My name is Bob. I red-lighted your posts in this discussion. I was receiving (listening) to your views, but your responses broke down your presentation. This is not beneficial.

Last Sunday when I joined in the thread, I was reading your posts carefully, and at first it seemed like a constructive dialogue between you and David. He was merely sharing his view and Scriptures. But instead of receiving (listening) what he posted, I was taken aback by your "reactive" posts as defensive and dismissive. For example;

"It was nice visiting here" and "wrong forum for me" followed by "I will give it one more shot..." etc... What does all this mean?

I joined this site to fellowship, bond with others and learn with a listening ear. I am capable of studying God's Word, listening and applying the application as a disciple for Christ beside what I'm called to in ministry when I'm not logged on here.

I want to encourage you, GeneZ. Starting with my personal testimony, I took the time to read the forum rules especially #10, #11, and #12. Let's not be so quick to react, instead, prayerfully receive (listen,) and seek what God says first before responding to whomever we're sharing with in a thread/post.
I personally find this beneficial.

If my belief (sola scriptura,) views, Scripture, exegesis, hermeneutics do not align with Biblical Truth Forum, I'll leave amicably and find another Christian forum.

Please think about what I'm saying, GeneZ.

God bless you and your entire family.

Bob

 

[Rose]

@GeneZ I joined this group to ask questions and find answers, to learn from others and not to cause friction. PEACE to everyone.

 

[GeneZ]

Hello GeneZ;

Let's put aside our fellowship discussion for a moment and take a step back. My name is Bob. I red-lighted your posts in this discussion. I was receiving (listening) to your views, but your responses broke down your presentation. This is not beneficial.

Last Sunday when I joined in the thread, I was reading your posts carefully, and at first it seemed like a constructive dialogue between you and David. He was merely sharing his view and Scriptures. But instead of receiving (listening) what he posted, I was taken aback by your "reactive" posts as defensive and dismissive. For example;

You're right.... And, David is right.

I am wrong.

You quote me saying:

"It was nice visiting here" and "wrong forum for me" followed by "I will give it one more shot..." etc... What does all this mean?

That is why I sensed this forum is not where I belong.
Maybe after I grow more in understanding, it might be good then to return and be able to exchange ideas better on your level.

Grace and peace!

 

[Yesua888]

You're right.... And, David is right.

I am wrong.

You quote me saying:

"It was nice visiting here" and "wrong forum for me" followed by "I will give it one more shot..." etc... What does all this mean?

That is why I sensed this forum is not where I belong.
Maybe after I grow more in understanding, it might be good then to return and be able to exchange ideas better on your level.

Grace and peace!

GeneZ,
When I first joined a "Christian" forum, I had many questions ... I wanted answers to what did not make sense to me. I come from a background of alternative thinkers (a mixed bag). The biggest thing for me was accepting that the Bible had not been tampered with through translations.
My questions were not well received, and I thought some of the members were just plain rude and mean, so I moved on ...
A bit later, I tried another forum, and by then I did sit back and listen. It is good to question, and is part of learning, and developing discernment. I guess slowing down and just listening, and re-reading, helped. However, I do believe that this was God's hand, because He too wants me to grow Spiritually, and I reached out to Him ,,,
I had prayed for "discernment" and for God to give me clarity; ears to hear, eyes to see and senses to tune in ...
I also prayed that He would teach me about Him, about my fellow humans, and about myself. I preferred animals to humans ...
God has delivered, yet I know that I am not done yet; still Lots to Learn!
All the best, going forward

 

[Alice]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

The serpent tempts Man to challenge God's direct order - 'you will not die'. The serpent appeals to Man's innate curiosity and he eats of the tree of knowledge. Sure enough, Adam and Eve do not die as God seemingly suggested but instead gain this knowledge of good and evil and become 'like God'. The true effect of this act is paradoxical, however. We become dead in the sense of spiritual separation from God and thus, are farther from him than ever. The serpent has tricked Man into questioning God's authority, into believing he can determine morality for himself. It was our act of disobedience which led to the state of the world as we know it today. From this point on, Man is cursed to know shame, enmity, pain, oppression, desire, toil and death. God must now intervene to prevent catastrophe - 'behold, the man has become like us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever' we are banished from the Garden. This raises the possibility of there having been an intended, additional chapter to the creation story which has been thrown off course by Man's curiosity and disobedience. Now it is paramount that Man must not be able to eat of the tree of life, as he was once free to do. This is an act of mercy by God - he saves Man from a harm he cannot possibly fathom. Our actions have real and cosmic consequences.