"You will not surely die."

[Rose]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

 

[GeneZ]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

There was no need for any concept for salvation.
Why should there be?

For Adam and the woman were without sin until after they ate.
That concept of any kind of death would have been completely foreign to them.

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

Satan in his limited understanding thought if he could get them to eat of the wrong fruit?
That he would be rid of man and have dominion over the new earth for himself....

But?

When the woman and Adam ate?
A new type of death was being introduced.
"Spiritual death."

God was teaching the angels something new, and something that man was to eventually need to comprehend.

grace and peace ........

 

[David]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

No. The serpent was not teaching a salvation doctrine. He was attacking the authority of God’s Word.

God had already spoken plainly: “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” ~Genesis 2:17. No mystery. No symbolism. God drew a clear line between obedience and death.

Then the serpent stepped in and did what deception always does. He did not deny God existed. He did not deny the command was given. He simply rewrote the consequence: “Ye shall not surely die” ~Genesis 3:4.

That was humanity’s first collision between God’s Word and a competing voice.

Understand what happened in that moment. The issue was never fruit. The issue was authority. Would man trust what God said, or trust a voice promising safety while walking into disobedience?

Genesis 3 is not about OSAS because salvation had not yet entered the story. No one needed redemption before sin. The serpent was not explaining eternal security. He was denying divine judgment altogether.

But here is where the warning reaches us.

The strategy of the enemy has never changed. God says sin brings death: “the wages of sin is death” ~Romans 6:23. Deception answers, “You’ll be fine.” God calls for repentance. The lie offers reassurance without obedience. God warns. The lie comforts rebellion.

That is the same old whisper dressed in new language.

Scripture never separates assurance from abiding faith. Jesus said, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch” ~John 15:6. Hebrews warns, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” ~Hebrews 3:12. The Bible does not soothe people into complacency. It calls them to continue trusting and walking with God.

So no, Genesis 3 is not an early debate about eternal security. It is something more foundational. It is the first recorded moment when a creature told humanity that God’s warning did not really mean what God said.

And every generation faces the same choice Adam and Eve faced: believe God as He speaks, or believe the voice that makes disobedience feel safe.

 

[David]

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

Satan in his limited understanding thought if he could get them to eat of the wrong fruit?
That he would be rid of man and have dominion over the new earth for himself....

Scripture never mentions a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God instructing angels through the fall. The Bible only tells us that God warned Adam about death ~Genesis 2:17, the serpent denied God’s word ~Genesis 3:4, and death entered through sin ~Romans 5:12. Where Scripture is silent, we should be silent.

 

[GeneZ]

Scripture never mentions a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God instructing angels through the fall. The Bible only tells us that God warned Adam about death ~Genesis 2:17, the serpent denied God’s word ~Genesis 3:4, and death entered through sin ~Romans 5:12. Where Scripture is silent, we should be silent.

Never mentions?
Or, never indicates?

It was nice visiting here...

 

[David]

Never mentions?
Or, never indicates?

It was nice visiting here...

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence.

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

What Scripture actually says is plain:

God warned man, not angels, about death: “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” ~Genesis 2:17.

The serpent contradicted God’s word: “Ye shall not surely die” ~Genesis 3:4.

Death entered the human world through sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12.

Those are stated facts of the text.

Biblical teaching must come from what is written, not from possibilities we imagine between the lines. Scripture warns us “not to think of men above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

So yes, never mentions and never indicates both apply. If God intended us to believe those things, He would have revealed them.

 

[GeneZ]

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

 

[bobinfaith]

Is the serpent’s “You will not surely die” the ancient version of OSAS?

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence. Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas. What Scripture actually says is plain:

Good morning, Rose;

You ask a question that many times my wife and I have asked, reflected (our past conversion when we gave our lives to Jesus,) pondered (future directions we believe God has taken us) and discuss where we are today in our faith and marriage.

At times she and I attempted to "rewrite the Bible" by using personal consolations (making a way out of our mistakes) to this OSAS. But we learned God's Word is very straight up when we try to reason with God.

Woe to the world who attempt to add "anything" to it.

The serpent's assurance to Adam and Eve, "Surely you will not die" reference Genesis 3:4 is an example of OSAS. It's taken out of Biblical context and that's where our own reasoning comes in.

Again, let the world beware, to those who attempt to add "anything" to God's Word.

Once Saved Always Saved is a very debatable topic amongst Christians, however, God sees the ulterior motive in the heart instead of complete discipline - obedience, God's correction, when to avoid disobedience, spiritual maturity, a grateful heart to our salvation and more.

God bless you, Rose, and your entire family.

Bob

 

[David]

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

If by “wrong forum” you mean a forum where claims are tested by Scripture, then yes, that is exactly what Biblical Truth Forum is meant to be.

This isn’t about forcing agreement or pushing people away. It’s about the standard. God’s Word says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. So here, ideas are weighed by Scripture, not protected from examination.

You said I’m wrong, but no passage has been shown that teaches these ideas. Scripture warns us “not to think… above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6. That boundary applies to all of us equally.

You are welcome to participate, disagree, and present your case. But the expectation is simple: doctrine must come from the Bible itself. If Scripture teaches it, show the text. If it does not, then we should not present it as biblical truth.

That is not exclusion. That is submission to God’s Word.

 

[GeneZ]

The issue is not wording. The issue is biblical evidence.

Scripture neither mentions nor indicates a prehistoric world, dinosaurs teaching Satan about death, or God educating angels through Adam’s fall. There is no passage that teaches, implies, or even hints at those ideas.

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.

Genesis 1:2? Amplified translation...

The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Seems benign. Yes?

Then why did Jeremiah use Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew as a threat to the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy as a nation?

Jeremiah 4:6-8 was the warm-up of God's judgment about to come upon them.

6​

Raise the signal to go to Zion!​

Flee for safety without delay!​

For I am bringing disaster from the north,​

even terrible destruction.”​

​

7​

A lion has come out of his lair;​

a destroyer of nations has set out.​

He has left his place​

to lay waste your land.​

Your towns will lie in ruins​

without inhabitant.​

8​

So put on sackcloth,​

lament and wail,​

for the fierce anger of the Lord​

has not turned away from us.​

Israel was about to be ripped apart by God!
For they had been going off to the high places to perform pagan sex orgies and child sacrifice.

And, the Jews knew the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2. They knew it indicated utter destruction of all life. The prehistoric world ended that way. Where do we find that?
Right here!

22​

“My people are fools;​

they do not know me.​

They are senseless children;​

they have no understanding.​

They are skilled in doing evil;​

they know not how to do good.”​

23​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; (Genesis 1:2!)​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

24​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

25​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

26​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

Jeremiah 4:23 was almost a direct quote of Genesis 1:2!
"Tohu wabohu"...
Meaning an utter destruction and wreak and havoc of the land!

That was what Genesis 1:2 meant in the Hebrew to the Jews.
Not some flowery translation. "Void and empty."

It was so bad in Genesis 1:2, that Jeremiah had to add something to tell them that their fate will not be like the one of the first creation. Right here in verse 27, Jeremiah makes that known to the Jews.

27 This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew spoke of an utter destruction!
The Jews who spoke Hebrew knew it.

So, Jeremiah had to add that they would not be utterly destroyed in the same way
as found in Genesis 1:2.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

 

[David]

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

The problem here is not Hebrew vocabulary. The problem is context.

Jeremiah is not teaching that Genesis 1:2 describes a destroyed prehistoric world. He is using creation language as prophetic imagery of judgment. Scripture itself explains this if we simply read the passage carefully.

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:2.

Nothing in the text says judgment happened. Nothing says destruction occurred. Nothing says a previous world existed. The verse describes the initial unformed state of creation before God ordered it.

Now look at Jeremiah.Jeremiah is delivering a prophetic vision of Judah’s coming judgment. Notice how the prophet repeatedly says, “I looked…” (~Jeremiah 4:23–26). This is prophetic imagery, not a historical retelling of Genesis.

“I looked at the earth, and, behold, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light” ~Jeremiah 4:23.

Jeremiah deliberately reverses the creation order:

• light removed (Genesis 1:3 reversed)
• land undone (Genesis 1:9–10 reversed)
• birds gone (Genesis 1:20 reversed)
• people absent (Genesis 1:26 reversed)

He is describing de-creation, not pre-creation.

The point is simple: Israel’s sin would bring the land back into chaos, symbolically undoing creation blessings. The prophets regularly use creation imagery this way. Isaiah does the same when describing judgment: “the earth shall be utterly broken down” ~Isaiah 24:19.

This is prophetic poetry communicating devastation, not geology or a lost civilization.

If Genesis 1:2 meant a destroyed world, Scripture would say so somewhere else. But instead Scripture consistently teaches:

“In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11.

Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Death also enters the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world full of destruction and death before Adam directly contradicts this clear teaching.

So Jeremiah does not interpret Genesis 1:2 as destruction. He borrows Genesis language to warn that sin brings chaos resembling an uncreated world.

Scripture interprets Scripture. And when it does, the conclusion is straightforward:

Genesis 1:2 describes creation before order, not a judgment after a lost world. Jeremiah uses that imagery as a warning, not as evidence of prehistory.

Where Scripture is silent about a prehistoric civilization, we must remain silent too.

 

[GeneZ]

The problem here is not Hebrew vocabulary. The problem is context.

Jeremiah is not teaching that Genesis 1:2 describes a destroyed prehistoric world. He is using creation language as prophetic imagery of judgment. Scripture itself explains this if we simply read the passage carefully.

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:2.

Nothing in the text says judgment happened. Nothing says destruction occurred. Nothing says a previous world existed. The verse describes the initial unformed state of creation before God ordered it.

Now look at Jeremiah.Jeremiah is delivering a prophetic vision of Judah’s coming judgment. Notice how the prophet repeatedly says, “I looked…” (~Jeremiah 4:23–26). This is prophetic imagery, not a historical retelling of Genesis.

“I looked at the earth, and, behold, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light” ~Jeremiah 4:23.

Jeremiah deliberately reverses the creation order:

• light removed (Genesis 1:3 reversed)
• land undone (Genesis 1:9–10 reversed)
• birds gone (Genesis 1:20 reversed)
• people absent (Genesis 1:26 reversed)

He is describing de-creation, not pre-creation.

The point is simple: Israel’s sin would bring the land back into chaos, symbolically undoing creation blessings. The prophets regularly use creation imagery this way. Isaiah does the same when describing judgment: “the earth shall be utterly broken down” ~Isaiah 24:19.

This is prophetic poetry communicating devastation, not geology or a lost civilization.

If Genesis 1:2 meant a destroyed world, Scripture would say so somewhere else. But instead Scripture consistently teaches:

“In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11.

Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Death also enters the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world full of destruction and death before Adam directly contradicts this clear teaching.

So Jeremiah does not interpret Genesis 1:2 as destruction. He borrows Genesis language to warn that sin brings chaos resembling an uncreated world.

Scripture interprets Scripture. And when it does, the conclusion is straightforward:

Genesis 1:2 describes creation before order, not a judgment after a lost world. Jeremiah uses that imagery as a warning, not as evidence of prehistory.

Where Scripture is silent about a prehistoric civilization, we must remain silent too.

Good bye, David....

Enjoy your pedestal.

 

[Rose]

Genesis 1:2 says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

 

[David]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

If you're asking, “Does the ‘And’ at the start of Genesis 1:2 indicate that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2?”

No. The “And” at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 does not indicate that some catastrophe occurred between verse 1 and verse 2. That idea is imposed on the text. It is not drawn from it.

Genesis reads: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:1–2.

The Hebrew word translated “And” is the common conjunction waw. It is used constantly in Hebrew narrative simply to continue the description of what is happening. It does not introduce a gap, a judgment, or a destroyed world. In this case, verse 2 is explaining the initial condition of the earth at the moment of creation. The earth had not yet been shaped or filled. It was “without form and void,” meaning unformed and uninhabited. The six days that follow describe how God ordered what He had created.

Nothing in the text suggests ruin or reconstruction. There is no language of judgment, no reference to destruction, and no indication of a previous world. Those ideas are imported into the passage. The text itself simply describes the earth before God formed the land, produced light, and filled the world with life.

Scripture also confirms this reading elsewhere. God says plainly, “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11. Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Furthermore, Scripture teaches that death entered the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching.

So the “And” in Genesis 1:2 is simply a continuation of the creation account. Verse 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the earth’s initial unformed condition before God shaped and filled it during the six days of creation. The text is straightforward when we allow Scripture to speak for itself.

 

[GeneZ]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

You are knocking on a door that has only been painted upon a wall.
It will not open.

Jeremiah 4:23-27 describes what was found in Genesis 1:2.
But, does that matter to some?
They will always find a way to deny and argue.
Argue and deny...

Jeremiah 4:23-27​

​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; [Genesis 1:2]​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

​

This is what the Lord says: ​

[NOTE!]​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely."​

Why did Jeremiah find need to add verse 27?
It was to let the Jews know that what they were to face would not be exactly like what the Hebrew said happened in Genesis 1:2. That, they, (Jews) unlike the first creation, will not be utterly destroyed!



It is amazing how good answers are contained in the Bible.
Answers, that religious closed-minded souls scramble to hide and obscure, as if it were their duty to do so.

The understanding I have presented about Genesis 1:2 (in part) is what is called the GAP theory.
For some reason... It frightens religious souls.

God wants us to be spiritual. Not religious.
To think and breathe with righteous understanding.

Religious types are what had Christ crucified.
Now, they crucify the Word of God when they can.

For, He is the Word of God!

 

[Yesua888]

But it was Satan who held a concept of death. He knew of death because of seeing death taking place in the destroyed prehistoric world. Physical death Satan understood. For dinosaurs had killed other dinosaurs.

GeneZ,
Where do you get this information please? Thanks : )

 

[Rose]

If you're asking, “Does the ‘And’ at the start of Genesis 1:2 indicate that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2?”

No. The “And” at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 does not indicate that some catastrophe occurred between verse 1 and verse 2. That idea is imposed on the text. It is not drawn from it.

Genesis reads: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” ~Genesis 1:1–2.

The Hebrew word translated “And” is the common conjunction waw. It is used constantly in Hebrew narrative simply to continue the description of what is happening. It does not introduce a gap, a judgment, or a destroyed world. In this case, verse 2 is explaining the initial condition of the earth at the moment of creation. The earth had not yet been shaped or filled. It was “without form and void,” meaning unformed and uninhabited. The six days that follow describe how God ordered what He had created.

Nothing in the text suggests ruin or reconstruction. There is no language of judgment, no reference to destruction, and no indication of a previous world. Those ideas are imported into the passage. The text itself simply describes the earth before God formed the land, produced light, and filled the world with life.

Scripture also confirms this reading elsewhere. God says plainly, “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” ~Exodus 20:11. Not remade. Not restored after catastrophe. Made.

Furthermore, Scripture teaches that death entered the world only after Adam’s sin: “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin” ~Romans 5:12. A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching.

So the “And” in Genesis 1:2 is simply a continuation of the creation account. Verse 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the earth’s initial unformed condition before God shaped and filled it during the six days of creation. The text is straightforward when we allow Scripture to speak for itself.

Sorry, David. My post was intended for GeneZ. I already learned that the "And" in Gen 1:2 is a continuation of the creation account, that there was no gap theory. But I did learn something new from you - A prehistoric world filled with destruction and death before Adam contradicts that clear teaching from Rom. 5:12. Thanks a lot.

Rose

 

[Yesua888]

That is where you are wrong.
And, sound like you are all loaded to the gills to make sure no one will be allowed to know how.

If you are a die in the wool young earth creationist?
I would rather not bother.
It would mean... "wrong forum for me."

GeneZ,
Can you actually back up anything that you say?
This site is for Biblical Truth, found in Scripture ... that is the backing, we reamaining here, rely on. We seek Truth.
Sorry if you cannot see this, as it is quite simple really, we are here to learn Biblical Truth
All the best

 

[Yesua888]

I will give it one more shot...
And, I am going to keep it as simple as possible.

Genesis 1:2? Amplified translation...

The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Seems benign. Yes?

Then why did Jeremiah use Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew as a threat to the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy as a nation?

Jeremiah 4:6-8 was the warm-up of God's judgment about to come upon them.

6​

Raise the signal to go to Zion!​

Flee for safety without delay!​

For I am bringing disaster from the north,​

even terrible destruction.”​

​

7​

A lion has come out of his lair;​

a destroyer of nations has set out.​

He has left his place​

to lay waste your land.​

Your towns will lie in ruins​

without inhabitant.​

8​

So put on sackcloth,​

lament and wail,​

for the fierce anger of the Lord​

has not turned away from us.​

Israel was about to be ripped apart by God!
For they had been going off to the high places to perform pagan sex orgies and child sacrifice.

And, the Jews knew the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2. They knew it indicated utter destruction of all life. The prehistoric world ended that way. Where do we find that?
Right here!

22​

“My people are fools;​

they do not know me.​

They are senseless children;​

they have no understanding.​

They are skilled in doing evil;​

they know not how to do good.”​

23​

I looked at the earth,​

and it was formless and empty; (Genesis 1:2!)​

and at the heavens,​

and their light was gone.​

24​

I looked at the mountains,​

and they were quaking;​

all the hills were swaying.​

25​

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

26​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

Jeremiah 4:23 was almost a direct quote of Genesis 1:2!
"Tohu wabohu"...
Meaning an utter destruction and wreak and havoc of the land!

That was what Genesis 1:2 meant in the Hebrew to the Jews.
Not some flowery translation. "Void and empty."

It was so bad in Genesis 1:2, that Jeremiah had to add something to tell them that their fate will not be like the one of the first creation. Right here in verse 27, Jeremiah makes that known to the Jews.

27 This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew spoke of an utter destruction!
The Jews who spoke Hebrew knew it.

So, Jeremiah had to add that they would not be utterly destroyed in the same way
as found in Genesis 1:2.


Wars are won by reality. Not wishful thinking.
We are in spiritual warfare.

Hi Gene Z,
Sorry I am not convinced about the "previous world of dinosaurs" ... is this an added interpretation?
Just trying to follow and understand : ) tks

 

[Yesua888]

Notice the "And" at the beginning of the verse.

Hi Rose, what do you mean about "And"?