Was Jesus 100 % GOD and 100% man when he walked the earth?

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

Dear GeneZ,

Would you kindly consider backing up what you say, with the Bible verses, so that we can believe what you are saying?

I looked up things that you shared, and this is what came up for me:

• Jesus’ Pre-Existence is Divine, Not Soul-Based: Verses like John 1:1-2 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God... He was in the beginning with God") and John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") refer to the eternal Word (Logos) or the divine person of Jesus Christ, who is identified as God. John 1:14 clarifies that "the Word became flesh," indicating that the pre-existent divine entity took on human nature (including a human body and soul) at the Incarnation, rather than His soul existing independently before the world began.
• Human Souls Do Not Pre-Exist: The provided context explicitly states that the Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of human souls. Sources like GotQuestions.org and 412teens.org argue that each human soul begins at conception or birth, citing Genesis 2:7 ("man became a living being") and Hebrews 9:27 ("appointed for men to die once"). Jesus is cited as the only exception to this rule because He is God; John 1:30 and John 8:58 highlight that Jesus existed before John the Baptist and Abraham due to His divine nature, not because His human soul pre-existed.
• "The Soul of God" is Theologically Inaccurate: The concept of a "soul of God" is not supported by Scripture. God is described as Spirit (John 4:24) and eternal (Exodus 3:14, Isaiah 40:28). The phrase "with God in the beginning" (John 1:2) refers to the Son being in relationship with the Father as part of the Godhead, not as a created soul waiting to be born.

GeneZ, I think I have posed the question to you before, about where you get your information ... please let me know, so that I can understand you better. Thanks : )

PS and you are absolutely right about not adding to any poster's quoted version (when replying), but to reply below that.
The reason that I use orange, is because I like the colour, and I can see clearly what I am saying and what I am quoting or replying to (usually in black, and sometimes highlighted in another colour, to emphasise not to change the meaning).
We are all here to learn from each other, and most importantly, to learn God's Word from Scripture.

The Lord God of Israel openly declared in the Torah that he is God and also has a soul.

Don't push these aside, please as some do with superficial thought.
Read what it says.
Then wonder why.

And, I ask. What does it say?
Does the Lord God of Israel (the pre-incarnate Christ) say He has a Soul?
Or, not?
If He does?
Well then....


'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not
reject you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you
shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12


And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16


Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5


“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths,
and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

God is expressing human attributes.
And?
Jesus is God being expressed as humanity!

The Son of God was always having a soul!

God being expressed to man in a manner man can relate to?
How?
By means of His Soul.
For men understand a soul's ways of doing things!

I am trying to help.

 

[David]

He did not surrender his access.
He could have taken it back up at any time.

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.
I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
This command I received from my Father. John 10:17-18

To be as a man, He needed to refuse manifesting Himself in the powers of his Deity, in order to be qualified to be the perfect substitute for our humanity on the Cross. God can not die for man. Let alone die.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Hebrew 4:15

As God? What Hebrews 4:15 tells us, could not have been fulfilled.
His Deity had to be kept in neutral in regard to enabling his soul.
It had to be his choice not to sin. In contrast, God can not sin.

Can you accept even that much???

I can accept what Scripture says, but not what Scripture never says. John 10:17-18 says Christ laid down His life and took it up again. It does not say He kept His deity “in neutral.” Hebrews 4:15 says He was truly tempted and did not sin. It does not say He had to be capable of sinning.

Jesus remained fully God while becoming truly man. “The Word was God” and “the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1, 14. He was “put to death in the flesh” ~1 Peter 3:18. His deity did not die or become inactive.

Please show the verse that says Christ neutralized His deity so His soul could be tempted. That claim is not found in John 10, Hebrews 4, Philippians 2, or Matthew 4.

 

[David]

Jesus was without sin.
Men at that time he forgave sins were not without sin

He was knowing the Word of God perfectly.
He was knowing the atonement being fulfilled before anyone else could.

And, on the basis of knowing that God can not fail?
He was as a sinless righteous man, free to forgive sins because of that.

After all, he gave the same authority to forgive sins to his disciples (who we know are not God).
As apostles, they were granted by God the authority to forgive sins because of the completeness of the atonement of the Cross.

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not
forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:22-23

They were not God.

God granted the apostles this authority without them being God.
Just as He forgave sins while not functioning as God, but as a man possessing perfect righteousness.

.......

That explanation does not fit the text.

In Mark 2, the scribes said, “Who can forgive sins but God only?” Jesus did not correct them. He healed the man “that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins” ~Mark 2:7, 10. The miracle proved His divine authority, not merely His confidence in a future atonement.

John 20:23 does not make the apostles independent forgivers of sin. They proclaimed forgiveness through Christ. Peter preached, “Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” ~Acts 10:43.

Jesus forgave sins by His own authority. The apostles announced forgiveness in His name. Those are not the same thing.

 

[David]

That was not really addressing what I said.

Rather than dusting off some of my reference books?
I will give a direct copy and paste from the quite often excellent AI search engine. I will copy and paste for all here to see.

It makes my point. One that you skimmed over and diverted away to the next verse as to negate what was the point being made.

The real question should be? Why should Satan tempt Jesus to turn the stones into bread when Satan recognized that Jesus being also God could?

Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove He was the Son of God.

Those who read mere translations with no understanding of the Greek will miss the true meaning.
They will assume that Satan was challenging Jesus to prove He is the Son of God by turning the stones into bread.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Satan's motive was to tempt Jesus into ceasing to be as a man, and to take
back up His powers as being God in function. Thus, negating Jesus being qualified to die in our place as a man.

Now?

Quoted from Google's AI Search Assist.


In Matthew 4:3, the phrase "if you be the Son of God" is an example of a first-class condition in Greek, which implies that the speaker assumes the premise is true. This means that Satan is not questioning Jesus' identity but rather acknowledging it as a given while attempting to tempt Him.

DeeperStudy Bible.org

Understanding First-Class Conditions in Greek​

Definition of First-Class Condition​

In Greek, a first-class condition is a type of conditional statement where the speaker assumes the premise is true.
This is often indicated by the use of the word "if" (Greek: εἰ, ei) followed by a verb in the indicative mood.

Example in Matthew 4:3​

In Matthew 4:3, the phrase "if you be the Son of God" is a classic example of a first-class condition. Here, Satan is not questioning Jesus' identity but rather acknowledging it as a given. The implication is that Satan recognizes Jesus as the Son of God while attempting to tempt Him.


You avoided explaining why that was so.
It was Satan wanting to get Jesus to cease being as a man in his function!
Not to prove that He is God!

Grace and peace.....

The Greek point does not prove your conclusion. Even if Satan was acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God, Matthew 4 still does not say Christ had surrendered His divine powers or that using them would have disqualified Him from dying for us.

The temptation was to use His power contrary to the Father’s will to satisfy Himself. Jesus answered with Scripture and remained obedient: “Man shall not live by bread alone” ~Matthew 4:4.

You are moving from “Satan knew who Jesus was” to “Jesus had stopped functioning as God.” The first may be true. The second is not stated in the passage.

 

[David]

Why not simply say, "myself?

But, rather, choose the word "soul?"

What you are doing is how some reasoned around it knowing full well that God is not soul.

Berean Literal Bible
YHWH tests the righteous, and His soul hates the wicked one and the lover of violence.

If how you reasoned it were fact?
Then it should simply read more like this...

YHWH tests the righteous, and He hates the wicked one and the lover of violence.

But we see instead this?

YHWH tests the righteous, and His soul hates the wicked one and the lover of violence.
There is a reason for everything.

Because “soul” can refer to the person himself, his desire, or his whole being. It does not always describe a separate part within someone.

God says, “Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth” ~Isaiah 1:14. That simply means God Himself hates them. He also says, “Shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?” ~Jeremiah 5:9. Again, it means God Himself.

Psalm 11:5 says the LORD’s soul hates the wicked. It does not say His soul is another divine Person, and it never identifies that soul as the Son. You are building a doctrine from the word “soul” that the passage itself does not teach.

 

[David]

The Lord God of Israel openly declared in the Torah that he is God and also has a soul.

Don't push these aside, please as some do with superficial thought.
Read what it says.
Then wonder why.

And, I ask. What does it say?
Does the Lord God of Israel (the pre-incarnate Christ) say He has a Soul?
Or, not?
If He does?
Well then....


'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not
reject you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you
shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12


And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16


Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5


“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths,
and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

God is expressing human attributes.
And?
Jesus is God being expressed as humanity!

The Son of God was always having a soul!

God being expressed to man in a manner man can relate to?
How?
By means of His Soul.
For men understand a soul's ways of doing things!

I am trying to help.

These verses do not say the Son is God’s soul. That conclusion is being added to them.

In Isaiah 1:14, God says, “Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth,” and then, “I am weary to bear them.” “My soul” refers to God Himself, not another Person within God. The same is true in Psalm 11:5 and Judges 10:16.

Jesus is eternally the Word and the Son. “The Word was God,” and later, “the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1, 14. Scripture never calls Him “the Soul of God” or says His human soul existed before the incarnation.

These passages describe God’s own hatred, grief, and desire in language we understand. They do not teach that the Son was eternally God’s soul. Please show one verse that actually says that.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

I can accept what Scripture says, but not what Scripture never says. John 10:17-18 says Christ laid down His life and took it up again. It does not say He kept His deity “in neutral.” Hebrews 4:15 says He was truly tempted and did not sin. It does not say He had to be capable of sinning.

Jesus remained fully God while becoming truly man. “The Word was God” and “the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1, 14. He was “put to death in the flesh” ~1 Peter 3:18. His deity did not die or become inactive.

Please show the verse that says Christ neutralized His deity so His soul could be tempted. That claim is not found in John 10, Hebrews 4, Philippians 2, or Matthew 4.

His Deity was not placed into neutral.
For if he did?
All creation would explode and cease to exist!

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:17

What was meant by Philippians 2:6-7?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

In order to make himself to become like us in every way? (but without sin) Hebrews 2:17

Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect,
so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in
the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

He can be merciful?
Because when He denied himself of powers of Deity?
His humanity not to be empowered by His own Deity?
He felt weakness like we do.
That causes Him to be merciful to us knowing how painful being weak is.

If He remained being God in power?
God feels no weakness.

 

[David]

His Deity was not placed into neutral.
For if he did?
All creation would explode and cease to exist!

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:17

What was meant by Philippians 2:6-7?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

In order to make himself to become like us in every way? (but without sin) Hebrews 2:17

Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect,
so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in
the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

He can be merciful?
Because when He denied himself of powers of Deity?
His humanity not to be empowered by His own Deity?
He felt weakness like we do.
That causes Him to be merciful to us knowing how painful being weak is.

If He remained being God in power?
God feels no weakness.

We have already gone over the claim that Christ denied Himself the powers of deity, so I will not repeat that discussion.

Your appeal to Colossians 1:17 actually confirms that Christ continued exercising divine power, because “by him all things consist.”

Philippians 2:6-7 says He humbled Himself by taking “the form of a servant” and being made in human likeness. It does not say He stopped using His divine power.

Hebrews 2:17 teaches that He truly became man and experienced human weakness and suffering. That does not require His deity to become inactive. He could suffer in the flesh while remaining fully God.

His mercy comes from the fact that He truly suffered and was tempted as a man, not because He stopped being God.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

These verses do not say the Son is God’s soul. That conclusion is being added to them.

In Isaiah 1:14, God says, “Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth,” and then, “I am weary to bear them.” “My soul” refers to God Himself, not another Person within God. The same is true in Psalm 11:5 and Judges 10:16.

Jesus is eternally the Word and the Son. “The Word was God,” and later, “the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1, 14. Scripture never calls Him “the Soul of God” or says His human soul existed before the incarnation.

These passages describe God’s own hatred, grief, and desire in language we understand. They do not teach that the Son was eternally God’s soul. Please show one verse that actually says that.

God transcends all weakness.
He can not be angry like we think of anger.

How can you get angry when you already know what was to happen, and decreed that it should happen?

It is God's Soul that gets right down with us and at home with knowing weakness and sorrow...
And our joys!

The Soul of God is in union with God, and is the intermediary between God and man. And, man and God.
That is why we must pray to the Father through Christ!

By means of His Soul? The Lord Jesus interprets God in such a manner that He knows our souls will be able to comprehend the Father.
Hence? To see Him is to see the Father!

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

We have already gone over the claim that Christ denied Himself the powers of deity, so I will not repeat that discussion.

Your appeal to Colossians 1:17 actually confirms that Christ continued exercising divine power, because “by him all things consist.”

Time context?

Colossians 1:17 was written when?

Was it written after His ascension and returning to Heaven to be restored to His glory? (Which it was)

Or, while He was on earth needing to make Himself be as a man, to be the perfect substitute for us on the Cross?

 

[David]

Time context?

Colossians 1:17 was written when?

Was it written after His ascension and returning to Heaven to be restored to His glory? (Which it was)

Or, while He was on earth needing to make Himself be as a man, to be the perfect substitute for us on the Cross?

The time Colossians was written does not change what Colossians 1:17 says about who Christ is: “He is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Paul does not say Christ resumed holding creation together after returning to heaven.

While Jesus was on earth, He said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5:17). He commanded the wind and sea, raised the dead, forgave sins, and knew what was in man. His divine power was plainly active during His earthly ministry.

Philippians 2 says He humbled Himself by becoming a servant and obeying unto death. It does not say His divine power was removed and later restored. His glory was veiled, but His deity and divine power never ceased.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

Dear GeneZ,

Would you kindly consider backing up what you say, with the Bible verses, so that we can believe what you are saying?

I looked up things that you shared, and this is what came up for me:

• Jesus’ Pre-Existence is Divine, Not Soul-Based: Verses like John 1:1-2 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God... He was in the beginning with God") and John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") refer to the eternal Word (Logos) or the divine person of Jesus Christ, who is identified as God. John 1:14 clarifies that "the Word became flesh," indicating that the pre-existent divine entity took on human nature (including a human body and soul) at the Incarnation, rather than His soul existing independently before the world began.
• Human Souls Do Not Pre-Exist: The provided context explicitly states that the Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of human souls. Sources like GotQuestions.org and 412teens.org argue that each human soul begins at conception or birth, citing Genesis 2:7 ("man became a living being") and Hebrews 9:27 ("appointed for men to die once"). Jesus is cited as the only exception to this rule because He is God; John 1:30 and John 8:58 highlight that Jesus existed before John the Baptist and Abraham due to His divine nature, not because His human soul pre-existed.
• "The Soul of God" is Theologically Inaccurate: The concept of a "soul of God" is not supported by Scripture. God is described as Spirit (John 4:24) and eternal (Exodus 3:14, Isaiah 40:28). The phrase "with God in the beginning" (John 1:2) refers to the Son being in relationship with the Father as part of the Godhead, not as a created soul waiting to be born.

GeneZ, I think I have posed the question to you before, about where you get your information ... please let me know, so that I can understand you better. Thanks : )

PS and you are absolutely right about not adding to any poster's quoted version (when replying), but to reply below that.
The reason that I use orange, is because I like the colour, and I can see clearly what I am saying and what I am quoting or replying to (usually in black, and sometimes highlighted in another colour, to emphasise not to change the meaning).
We are all here to learn from each other, and most importantly, to learn God's Word from Scripture.

• Jesus’ Pre-Existence is Divine, Not Soul-Based: Verses like John 1:1-2 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God... He was in the beginning with God") and John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") refer to the eternal Word (Logos) or the divine person of Jesus Christ, who is identified as God. John 1:14 clarifies that "the Word became flesh," indicating that the pre-existent divine entity took on human nature (including a human body and soul) at the Incarnation, rather than His soul existing independently before the world began.

Before the Incarnation (before being given a human body) Jesus' pre-existence was both Divine and Soul in union!

OT... Here again! Look! He had a Soul!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16

Deity does not get impatient! A soul can!

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving
violence his soul certainly hates. Ps 11:5

God does not hate. A soul can hate!
By means of His eternal union with His soul God expresses hatred.

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths,
and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. Isa 1:13-14


'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling
among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12

Only God in union with a Soul could say those things!

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

The time Colossians was written does not change what Colossians 1:17 says about who Christ is: “He is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Paul does not say Christ resumed holding creation together after returning to heaven.

While Jesus was on earth, He said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5:17). He commanded the wind and sea, raised the dead, forgave sins, and knew what was in man. His divine power was plainly active during His earthly ministry.

Philippians 2 says He humbled Himself by becoming a servant and obeying unto death. It does not say His divine power was removed and later restored. His glory was veiled, but His deity and divine power never ceased.

When did the Lord God of Israel become Jesus?
Was He Jesus before Mary provided his body???

 

[Yesua888]

That was not really addressing what I said.

Rather than dusting off some of my reference books?
I will give a direct copy and paste from the quite often excellent AI search engine. I will copy and paste for all here to see.

It makes my point. One that you skimmed over and diverted away to the next verse as to negate what was the point being made.

The real question should be? Why should Satan tempt Jesus to turn the stones into bread when Satan recognized that Jesus being also God could?

Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove He was the Son of God.

Those who read mere translations with no understanding of the Greek will miss the true meaning.
They will assume that Satan was challenging Jesus to prove He is the Son of God by turning the stones into bread.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Satan's motive was to tempt Jesus into ceasing to be as a man, and to take
back up His powers as being God in function. Thus, negating Jesus being qualified to die in our place as a man.

Now?

Quoted from Google's AI Search Assist.


In Matthew 4:3, the phrase "if you be the Son of God" is an example of a first-class condition in Greek, which implies that the speaker assumes the premise is true. This means that Satan is not questioning Jesus' identity but rather acknowledging it as a given while attempting to tempt Him.

DeeperStudy Bible.org

Understanding First-Class Conditions in Greek​

Definition of First-Class Condition​

In Greek, a first-class condition is a type of conditional statement where the speaker assumes the premise is true.
This is often indicated by the use of the word "if" (Greek: εἰ, ei) followed by a verb in the indicative mood.

Example in Matthew 4:3​

In Matthew 4:3, the phrase "if you be the Son of God" is a classic example of a first-class condition. Here,
Satan is not questioning Jesus' identity but rather acknowledging it as a given. The implication is that Satan recognizes Jesus as the Son of God while attempting to tempt Him.

You avoided explaining why that was so.
It was Satan wanting to get Jesus to cease being as a man in his function!
Not to prove that He is God!

Grace and peace.....

"What exactly did Satan mean:

"A primary example is 1 Corinthians 15:13-14, where the apostle Paul states, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised." Paul assumes the condition is true to demonstrate its absurd conclusion, even though he believes the premise is false.

Other key examples include:

• Matthew 12:27: "If I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out?" (Assuming the opponent's premise to prove a logical point).
• Mark 4:23: "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." (Assuming the audience has the capacity to hear).
• Luke 4:3: "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread." (Satan assumes the premise is true to tempt Jesus).

then there is the "soul":

• Genesis 1:26-27: Cited to support the view that because man is made in the image of God, man has an eternal soul.
• John 3:16: Used to distinguish between those who have eternal life (believers) and those who perish (unbelievers), implying the soul's fate depends on this belief.
• John 5:24: States that whoever hears Jesus' word and believes has eternal life and has passed from death to life.
• 1 Thessalonians 5:23: Mentions the preservation of the whole spirit, soul, and body.
• Matthew 10:28: Warns of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell, implying the soul's continued existence after bodily death.

And the question was "Was Jesus 100% God 100% Man":

Got lost as to understanding why Satan came into it, unless you are trying to prove that Satan's intensions are not what we are led to believe in the Bible, but rather as per Greek translations, explaining the use of "if"
"Satan is not questioning Jesus' identity but rather acknowledging it as a given. The implication is that Satan recognizes Jesus as the Son of God while attempting to tempt Him."

This is where I still ask why Satan was brought in? Was it to back up or explain the original question of the Topic?
There were so many instances like this one, which I believe took us off Topic?

All the text above and so much of it has become so confusing for me, sorry!

If we stick to the question of the Topic, in amongst all the texting (and our own research), the answer is:

Jesus WAS 100% God and 100% Man!

GeneZ, was your question answered?

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

"What exactly did Satan mean:

"A primary example is 1 Corinthians 15:13-14, where the apostle Paul states, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised." Paul assumes the condition is true to demonstrate its absurd conclusion, even though he believes the premise is false.

Other key examples include:

• Matthew 12:27: "If I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out?" (Assuming the opponent's premise to prove a logical point).
• Mark 4:23: "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." (Assuming the audience has the capacity to hear).
• Luke 4:3: "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread." (Satan assumes the premise is true to tempt Jesus).

I believe you may have missed the point by citing all those verses.
The Greek has not only a first class condition, but a second, third, and fourth.

The Greek reader did not have to figure out the intent of the "if."

Greek has four classes of conditional sentences: first, second, third, and fourth. Each class reflects different assumptions about the truth of the condition, ranging from assumed reality to varying degrees of uncertainty.
preceptaustin.org middletownbiblechurch.org

Overview of Greek Conditional Sentences​

Greek conditional sentences are categorized into four classes, each representing different assumptions about the truth of the condition.

Classes of Conditional Sentences​

Class	Description	Mood Used
First Class	Assumes the condition is true for the sake of argument.	Indicative mood
Second Class	Assumes the condition is false or contrary to fact.	Past indicative mood
Third Class	Leaves the truth of the condition undetermined; it may or may not be true.	Subjunctive mood
Fourth Class	Indicates a condition that is very doubtful or unlikely to be true.	Optative mood (rarely used)

Detailed Breakdown​

First Class Condition​

• Assumes the condition is true.
• Example: "If you have risen with Christ, then seek those things which are above."

Second Class Condition​

• Assumes the condition is false.
• Example: "If Joshua had given them rest, then God would not have spoken of another day."

Third Class Condition​

• The truth of the condition is uncertain.
• Example: "If you should see him, let him know."

Fourth Class Condition​

• Indicates a very doubtful condition.
• Example: Rarely used in New Testament texts.

Understanding these classes helps in interpreting Greek texts accurately, as each class conveys different nuances in meaning.
middletownbiblechurch.org preceptaustin.org

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

All the text above and so much of it has become so confusing for me, sorry!

If we stick to the question of the Topic, in amongst all the texting (and our own research), the answer is:

Jesus WAS 100% God and 100% Man!

GeneZ, was your question answered?

What is confusing today is what God uses later to show you how you have grown in grace.
You will know then that God has been using you to grow, if you are willing to learn.

Right now?
Might as well lay low.

Grace and peace!

 

[Yesua888]

I believe you may have missed the point by citing all those verses.
The Greek has not only a first class condition, but a second, third, and fourth.

The Greek reader did not have to figure out the intent of the "if."

Greek has four classes of conditional sentences: first, second, third, and fourth. Each class reflects different assumptions about the truth of the condition, ranging from assumed reality to varying degrees of uncertainty.
preceptaustin.org middletownbiblechurch.org

Overview of Greek Conditional Sentences​

Greek conditional sentences are categorized into four classes, each representing different assumptions about the truth of the condition.

Classes of Conditional Sentences​

Class	Description	Mood Used
First Class	Assumes the condition is true for the sake of argument.	Indicative mood
Second Class	Assumes the condition is false or contrary to fact.	Past indicative mood
Third Class	Leaves the truth of the condition undetermined; it may or may not be true.	Subjunctive mood
Fourth Class	Indicates a condition that is very doubtful or unlikely to be true.	Optative mood (rarely used)

Detailed Breakdown​

First Class Condition​

• Assumes the condition is true.
• Example: "If you have risen with Christ, then seek those things which are above."

Second Class Condition​

• Assumes the condition is false.
• Example: "If Joshua had given them rest, then God would not have spoken of another day."

Third Class Condition​

• The truth of the condition is uncertain.
• Example: "If you should see him, let him know."

Fourth Class Condition​

• Indicates a very doubtful condition.
• Example: Rarely used in New Testament texts.

Understanding these classes helps in interpreting Greek texts accurately, as each class conveys different nuances in meaning.
middletownbiblechurch.org preceptaustin.org

GeneZ,
Is your contension that we should be questioning the "English" version of the bible against the ancient "Greek" interpretations?

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

GeneZ,
Is your contension that we should be questioning the "English" version of the bible against the ancient "Greek" interpretations?

That got us sidetracked a bit.

It was to show that Jesus was in need to maintain walking as a man as to qualify to die for all men. He needed to not walk in his full powers of his Deity which would have disqualified him from doing so.

The way Satan spoke to Jesus in the temptation in English translations totally keeps that from being understood.
Many assume Satan doubted Jesus was the real Messiah, and challenged him to prove he was by turning stones into bread.

 

[Yesua888]

That got us sidetracked a bit.

It was to show that Jesus was in need to maintain walking as a man as to qualify to die for all men. He needed to not walk in his full powers of his Deity which would have disqualified him from doing so.

The way Satan spoke to Jesus in the temptation in English translations totally keeps that from being understood.
Many assume Satan doubted Jesus was the real Messiah, and challenged him to prove he was by turning stones into bread.

Hi GeneZ,

I guess there will always be differing views on Scripture, no matter what?

"The theological consensus on whether Jesus exercised his full divine power on earth to qualify for the atonement varies between two main views:

• Self-Limitation (Kenosis) View: Many theologians argue that Jesus did not exercise his full independent divine power (such as omnipotence and omniscience) while on earth. Instead, he emptied himself (Philippians 2:7) by taking the form of a servant and relying on the Holy Spirit to perform miracles and fulfill his mission. In this view, his qualification to die for sinners came from his sinless human nature and voluntary submission to the Father, rather than the independent display of divine attributes.
• Full Deity View: Other perspectives hold that Jesus remained fully God with all divine attributes intact but chose not to use his power for his own benefit. His qualification for the sacrifice was not dependent on displaying full power, but on his role as the sinless Lamb of God who offered himself as a substitutionary atonement for humanity.

Ultimately, Jesus’ ability to die for all men is attributed to his unique identity as the God-Man and the infinite value of his sacrifice, rather than a requirement to walk in full, independent divine power during his earthly life."

 

[David]

When did the Lord God of Israel become Jesus?
Was He Jesus before Mary provided his body???

The eternal Son did not begin to exist when Mary conceived Him, but Scripture does not teach that a preexistent human soul named Jesus was placed into a body provided by Mary. John says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” and then, “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:1, 14). The eternal Word did not become God. He was God. At the incarnation, He became truly man without ceasing to be God.

The name Jesus was given in connection with His human birth: “She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS” (Matthew 1:21). Before the incarnation, Scripture calls Him the Word, the Son, the Lord, and the “I am.” After being conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of Mary, He was called Jesus. Mary did not merely provide a body for an already existing human soul. Hebrews 10:5 says, “A body hast thou prepared me,” and Luke 1:35 says, “That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” The Son existed eternally, but His humanity began with the incarnation.

So the biblical answer is that the eternal Son became flesh and was named Jesus. Scripture never says that “the Soul of God” existed before creation and later entered Mary’s body. That claim still goes beyond what is written.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

The eternal Son did not begin to exist when Mary conceived Him, but Scripture does not teach that a preexistent human soul named Jesus was placed into a body provided by Mary. John says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” and then, “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:1, 14). The eternal Word did not become God. He was God. At the incarnation, He became truly man without ceasing to be God.

The name Jesus was given in connection with His human birth: “She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS” (Matthew 1:21). Before the incarnation, Scripture calls Him the Word, the Son, the Lord, and the “I am.” After being conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of Mary, He was called Jesus. Mary did not merely provide a body for an already existing human soul. Hebrews 10:5 says, “A body hast thou prepared me,” and Luke 1:35 says, “That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” The Son existed eternally, but His humanity began with the incarnation.

So the biblical answer is that the eternal Son became flesh and was named Jesus. Scripture never says that “the Soul of God” existed before creation and later entered Mary’s body. That claim still goes beyond what is written.

All she provided was a human body for the soul of the Lord God of Israel.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Hebrews 10:5

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

We have already gone over the claim that Christ denied Himself the powers of deity, so I will not repeat that discussion.

Your appeal to Colossians 1:17 actually confirms that Christ continued exercising divine power, because “by him all things consist.”

The point that keeps being missed?
Is that His Deity did not stop being Deity.
I never said it did.


Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,
scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

His humanity .. In order to be the pioneer of our faith?
Needed to be tested in everyway as we are, but without sin.
"As we are" = human!


In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to Him who was able
to save Him from death. He was heard because of His godly fear. Hebrews 5:7

Hebrews 5:7 is not something omnipotent Deity needs to do.
Only humanity would need to do such a thing.
Jesus, in effect, was struggling as we as humans would struggle in the spiritual warfare God places us into.

So... By refusing to lean simply upon His own Deity's omnipotence to muscle through all the evil wanting him to fail?
He was able, as a sinless human being, in utilizing the same grace we now receive from the Spirit, and by means of the leading of the Father.
To have produced solutions for every obstacle and temptation a human being can face.

And, as a human? He would in that manner pioneer and author needed grace solutions that will work for us who are human.

If he had manifested himself in the power of God? Jesus would have effortlessly avoided any temptation. He would have been untouched. And no he would have had no need to pioneer faith solutions needed by humans.

We now have been given His faith as the grace means to overcome the flesh, the world, and the Devil.

In that way?
He tested each way to overcome, in a manner that He could then hand over to human believers, and give them what is needed
for overcoming every weakness and temptation that we might be confronted with as human beings.

 

[David]

All she provided was a human body for the soul of the Lord God of Israel.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Hebrews 10:5

Hebrews 10:5 does not prove what you are claiming. It says, “A body hast thou prepared me,” but it never says that a preexistent human soul entered that body, nor does it call Christ “the Soul of the Lord God of Israel.”

The eternal Son existed before His incarnation, but His humanity came through Mary. Scripture says that God sent forth His Son, “made of a woman” (Galatians 4:4), and that He was “made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Romans 1:3). Luke 1:35 says, “That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Mary did not merely provide an empty physical shell. Christ truly took humanity from her and was born of her. Hebrews 2:14 says, “He also himself likewise took part of the same” flesh and blood.

You keep asserting that Christ was “the Soul of God,” but you have not produced one verse that says this. Hebrews 10:5 does not say it. That doctrine is being added to the text, not drawn from it.

 

[David]

The point that keeps being missed?
Is that His Deity did not stop being Deity.
I never said it did.


Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,
scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

His humanity .. In order to be the pioneer of our faith?
Needed to be tested in everyway as we are, but without sin.
"As we are" = human!


In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to Him who was able
to save Him from death. He was heard because of His godly fear. Hebrews 5:7

Hebrews 5:7 is not something omnipotent Deity needs to do.
Only humanity would need to do such a thing.
Jesus, in effect, was struggling as we as humans would struggle in the spiritual warfare God places us into.

So... By refusing to lean simply upon His own Deity's omnipotence to muscle through all the evil wanting him to fail?
He was able, as a sinless human being, in utilizing the same grace we now receive from the Spirit, and by means of the leading of the Father.
To have produced solutions for every obstacle and temptation a human being can face.

And, as a human? He would in that manner pioneer and author needed grace solutions that will work for us who are human.

If he had manifested himself in the power of God? Jesus would have effortlessly avoided any temptation. He would have been untouched. And no he would have had no need to pioneer faith solutions needed by humans.

We now have been given His faith as the grace means to overcome the flesh, the world, and the Devil.

In that way?
He tested each way to overcome, in a manner that He could then hand over to human believers, and give them what is needed
for overcoming every weakness and temptation that we might be confronted with as human beings.

You are correct that Hebrews 5:7 describes Christ’s real human suffering. Jesus truly prayed, wept, suffered, and was “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). No one is denying His true humanity.

The problem is what you keep adding to that truth.

Hebrews never says Jesus refused to use His deity so He could “pioneer grace solutions.” It never says He tested different ways of overcoming temptation and then handed those methods to believers. It never says He depended upon the same grace that sinful human beings receive.

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus “the author and finisher of our faith.” He is the One upon whom faith rests and the One who brings it to completion. The verse does not say He invented techniques for overcoming sin.

Christ obeyed the Father perfectly. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered” (Hebrews 5:8). That does not mean He learned how to avoid sin through trial and error. He was the sinless Son who demonstrated perfect obedience through suffering.

Nor was His divine power inactive during His earthly life. He forgave sins (Mark 2:5-12), knew what was in man (John 2:24-25), commanded the wind and sea (Mark 4:39-41), and said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5:17).

The biblical truth is sufficient: Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. He genuinely suffered and was tempted, yet He never sinned. Because He suffered, He is able to sympathize with His people and help those who are tempted (Hebrews 2:18; 4:15-16).

But your claims about Him “testing each way to overcome,” “producing grace solutions,” and believers being given “His faith” go beyond what these passages say. You are building a doctrine from your own explanations instead of staying with the words of Scripture.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

Hebrews 10:5 does not prove what you are claiming. It says, “A body hast thou prepared me,” but it never says that a preexistent human soul entered that body, nor does it call Christ “the Soul of the Lord God of Israel.”

The Word is not always going to spell it out for you plainly.
If it did?
This verse would not be found in Scripture...

.... Philippians 1:9

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight.


Knowledge must be fought for.
God then provides the victory.

.......

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

You are correct that Hebrews 5:7 describes Christ’s real human suffering. Jesus truly prayed, wept, suffered, and was “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). No one is denying His true humanity.

The problem is what you keep adding to that truth.

Hebrews never says Jesus refused to use His deity so He could “pioneer grace solutions.” It never says He tested different ways of overcoming temptation and then handed those methods to believers. It never says He depended upon the same grace that sinful human beings receive.

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus “the author and finisher of our faith.” He is the One upon whom faith rests and the One who brings it to completion. The verse does not say He invented techniques for overcoming sin.

Christ obeyed the Father perfectly. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered” (Hebrews 5:8). That does not mean He learned how to avoid sin through trial and error. He was the sinless Son who demonstrated perfect obedience through suffering.

Nor was His divine power inactive during His earthly life. He forgave sins (Mark 2:5-12), knew what was in man (John 2:24-25), commanded the wind and sea (Mark 4:39-41), and said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5:17).

The biblical truth is sufficient: Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. He genuinely suffered and was tempted, yet He never sinned. Because He suffered, He is able to sympathize with His people and help those who are tempted (Hebrews 2:18; 4:15-16).

But your claims about Him “testing each way to overcome,” “producing grace solutions,” and believers being given “His faith” go beyond what these passages say. You are building a doctrine from your own explanations instead of staying with the words of Scripture.

You want everything very simple. Don't you?

Insight. What is it?

 

[David]

The Word is not always going to spell it out for you plainly.
If it did?
This verse would not be found in Scripture...

.... Philippians 1:9

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight.


Knowledge must be fought for.
God then provides the victory.

.......

You have already been shown from Scripture where your claim is wrong. Repeating the same assertion without answering the verses does not make it true.

 

[David]

You want everything very simple. Don't you?

Insight. What is it?

I want the truth from the Bible, not made-up stories. “Insight” does not mean inventing details that Scripture never gives. If your claim is true, show it from the text.

---

Moderator note: Please address the biblical argument without personal remarks about another member’s understanding. Keep the discussion focused on Scripture and the claims being made. Further condescending or personal comments may result in a formal warning.

 

[Bye Bye GeneZ]

You have already been shown from Scripture where your claim is wrong. Repeating the same assertion without answering the verses does not make it true.

Saying you refuted it repeatedly, is a parallel to the same claim.
You have not shown what you claim.

When it gets like that? Why argue?

 

[David]

Saying you refuted it repeatedly, is a parallel to the same claim.
You have not shown what you claim.

When it gets like that? Why argue?

That is exactly the point. There is no reason to keep arguing in circles.

I have given the Scriptures and explained why they contradict your claim. You have not answered those passages. You have simply repeated that I have not proven it.

This is not a minor disagreement. The deity of Jesus Christ is a salvation issue. Jesus said, “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). He also declared, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).

Thomas confessed directly to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). John then explained why these things were written: “That ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” (John 20:31).

Scripture says, “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father” (1 John 2:23), and, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God” (2 John 9).

A person cannot make up his own version of Jesus, reject what Scripture reveals about Him, and still claim to know the true Christ. Paul warned about those who preach “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Jesus Christ did not stop being God when He became man. “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9). He is the eternal Word who “was God” and “was made flesh” (John 1:1, 14).

If you reject the true Jesus Christ revealed in Scripture and continue believing in a Jesus of your own making, you will die in your sins. Only the true Jesus Christ has the power to save: “He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him” (Hebrews 7:25).

You are welcome to discuss the Bible on BTF, ask questions, and present Scripture for examination. You are not welcome to keep pushing this false teaching after it has been answered from Scripture.

This is your warning. If you post this teaching again, your posts will be placed under moderation. Any further attempts to use BTF to teach or promote this false doctrine will be deleted. Discussion is welcome. Repeatedly promoting false teaching after being shown the truth is not.