What If Everything Jesus Said About Hell Is Literally True?

[David]

Hell is not a word problem. It is a reality problem. Scripture does not speak of it to satisfy curiosity, but to warn souls. Jesus did not describe fire that is “never quenched” and a worm that “dieth not” to give scholars something to debate. He spoke that way because the danger is real and the end is final ~Mark 9:43–48.

Men love to soften what God has made severe. They rename judgment, stretch words, and hunt for loopholes because their conscience knows what their mouth resists. But Scripture does not blink. “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word describes both destinies. If hell is temporary, so is heaven. God does not play word games.

Hell is not folklore, not metaphor, not church tradition. Jesus said there is a place “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” He said God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell ~Matthew 10:28. He said many will cry “Lord, Lord” and still be shut out ~Matthew 7:21–23. That is not correction. That is condemnation.

The Bible is clear that death does not end accountability. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. No verse promises a second chance. No passage teaches eventual release. The lake of fire is called “the second death” for a reason ~Revelation 20:14–15.

This is why the gospel matters. This is why Christ came. He did not shed His blood to rescue people from mild inconvenience. He “delivered us from the wrath to come” ~1 Thessalonians 1:10. The cross makes no sense if hell is not real, eternal, and deserved.

Now is the time to stop negotiating with God and start believing Him. “Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts” ~Hebrews 3:15. Hell is real. Judgment is coming. Christ saves completely. Flee to Him while mercy is still offered.

 

[bobinfaith]

Good morning, David;

Are you currently sharing the Gospel with others, and their reaction indicates they're not listening? Not necessarily you, but the Word of God?

One pivotal area of the Gospel is the hope of eternal life with Christ. Another is God's promises to reveal who He is and what His plan is for all who seek Him. Another is His guidance of the Holy Spirit will lead those who follow Him to Truth. God's Truth is a vital compass in His direction of our lives.

Amos 3:7, 7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. - RSV

John 16:13, 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. - NKJV

Yet, the believer still responds with "what if's," "objectives," and "pessimistic" views of the Gospels. With this kind of bleak attitude they may not be ready to listen and believe what Jesus teaches about hell.

This reminds me of the crippled man at the Pool of Bethesda in John 5. Jesus asked him if he wanted to "heal" but the man responded with hopeless excuses. Perhaps because Jesus didn't ask or say what the man wanted to hear.

I take serious what Jesus teaches about hell. It exists. By believing in Him more and more each day and growing in my intimate relationship with God guides me to stay as far as I can from hell.

God bless you, David.

Bob

 

[David]

Good morning, David;

Are you currently sharing the Gospel with others, and their reaction indicates they're not listening? Not necessarily you, but the Word of God?

One pivotal area of the Gospel is the hope of eternal life with Christ. Another is God's promises to reveal who He is and what His plan is for all who seek Him. Another is His guidance of the Holy Spirit will lead those who follow Him to Truth. God's Truth is a vital compass in His direction of our lives.

Amos 3:7, 7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. - RSV

John 16:13, 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. - NKJV

Yet, the believer still responds with "what if's," "objectives," and "pessimistic" views of the Gospels. With this kind of bleak attitude they may not be ready to listen and believe what Jesus teaches about hell.

This reminds me of the crippled man at the Pool of Bethesda in John 5. Jesus asked him if he wanted to "heal" but the man responded with hopeless excuses. Perhaps because Jesus didn't ask or say what the man wanted to hear.

I take serious what Jesus teaches about hell. It exists. By believing in Him more and more each day and growing in my intimate relationship with God guides me to stay as far as I can from hell.

God bless you, David.

Bob

You’re correct that hearts can be hardened against the Word of God, and I’ll gladly agree that the Spirit must open up the ears of a man. I stand before you as evidence of that. I resisted the truth longer than I care to admit. I rationalized, argued, and did not want to hear what Scripture plainly said. But there were faithful believers who wouldn’t stop proclaiming the truth to me. They refused to water-down the message to make me feel good. They laid aside fear and trusted God to use His Word, and He used it to save me. “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (~Romans 10:17). Had they gotten lukewarm or softened the message, I might have stayed lost.

This is why I don’t think that timid gospel that is preached so widely today will ever produce repentance. Jesus did not soften His speech when eternal souls were on the line. He preached boldly about judgement and hell because it was truth, not because it was popular. “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (~Luke 13:3). Yes the gospel is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek (~1 Corinthians 1: 23), but that doesn’t allow us to soften it. We are responsible to preach faithfully, not efficaciously. I don’t want to quit on people who harden their hearts against the Gospel today because God didn’t quit on me when I did.

 

[bobinfaith]

We are responsible to preach faithfully, not efficaciously. I don’t want to quit on people who harden their hearts against the Gospel today because God didn’t quit on me when I did.

Hello David;

Well said, brother. If I may add, prayer for patience is important for those of us who teach. Bible studies will have hard questions or doubts, and that's ok because God sees the heart, that we're all learning.

He also sees the motives of those who are just messing around (or mocking God.)

Bob

 

[Yesua888]

Hello David;

Well said, brother. If I may add, prayer for patience is important for those of us who teach. Bible studies will have hard questions or doubts, and that's ok because God sees the heart, that we're all learning.

He also sees the motives of those who are just messing around (or mocking God.)

Bob

Thank you both, for your relentlessness to show us the Truth : )

 

[Denise60]

View attachment 267

Hell is not a word problem. It is a reality problem. Scripture does not speak of it to satisfy curiosity, but to warn souls. Jesus did not describe fire that is “never quenched” and a worm that “dieth not” to give scholars something to debate. He spoke that way because the danger is real and the end is final ~Mark 9:43–48.

Men love to soften what God has made severe. They rename judgment, stretch words, and hunt for loopholes because their conscience knows what their mouth resists. But Scripture does not blink. “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word describes both destinies. If hell is temporary, so is heaven. God does not play word games.

Hell is not folklore, not metaphor, not church tradition. Jesus said there is a place “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” He said God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell ~Matthew 10:28. He said many will cry “Lord, Lord” and still be shut out ~Matthew 7:21–23. That is not correction. That is condemnation.

The Bible is clear that death does not end accountability. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. No verse promises a second chance. No passage teaches eventual release. The lake of fire is called “the second death” for a reason ~Revelation 20:14–15.

This is why the gospel matters. This is why Christ came. He did not shed His blood to rescue people from mild inconvenience. He “delivered us from the wrath to come” ~1 Thessalonians 1:10. The cross makes no sense if hell is not real, eternal, and deserved.

Now is the time to stop negotiating with God and start believing Him. “Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts” ~Hebrews 3:15. Hell is real. Judgment is coming. Christ saves completely. Flee to Him while mercy is still offered.

yes and Jesus spoke of hell more then heaven its just as real as heaven is

 

[bobinfaith]

Hell is not a word problem. It is a reality problem. Scripture does not speak of it to satisfy curiosity, but to warn souls. Now is the time to stop negotiating with God and start believing Him. “Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts” ~Hebrews 3:15. Hell is real. Judgment is coming. Christ saves completely. Flee to Him while mercy is still offered.

yes and Jesus spoke of hell more then heaven its just as real as heaven is

Hello Denise60;

You are correct. It's an uncomfortable, serious subject but David is spot on.

I feel we want to hear more about "When we all get to heaven" (the popular Christian hymn) and in a way we may not be listening to the "reality problem."

I'm being rhetorical. So, many believers at some point will ask the question, "so what do we do?"

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[Denise60]

Hello Denise60;

You are correct. It's an uncomfortable, serious subject but David is spot on.

I feel we want to hear more about "When we all get to heaven" (the popular Christian hymn) and in a way we may not be listening to the "reality problem."

I'm being rhetorical. So, many believers at some point will ask the question, "so what do we do?"

God bless everyone.

Bob

When I was growing up you heard about hell everytime you went to church now it’s a rare thing

 

[Yesua888]

Christ came speaking in parables, and in the original text he uses the term "Gehenna." Gehenna is a place outside Jerusalem where broken pottery was dumped.

Etymology of the word Hell: The word originates from Germanic Paganism, referring to a covered or hidden place, and is related to Hel, the Scandinavian goddess of the underworld.
Hades
Hades is the Greek god of the dead (often called Pluto/Plouton). As the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon divided the cosmos, taking charge of the underworld.

Tartarus
Tartarus is a deep, sunless abyss in Greek mythology, acting as a profound dungeon of torment, suffering, and imprisonment for the wicked, monsters, and Titans. Located far below Hades, it serves as the ultimate place of divine punishment and, in some traditions, the deepest part of the underworld.

Angel in Greek mythology.
Angelos (or Angelia) is a minor deity and daughter of Zeus and Hera who serves as a messenger. She is rarely mentioned, notably appearing in one story to help her sister Europa, hiding from Hera's wrath, and eventually becoming associated with the underworld as a goddess of the dead.

Did Christ come to introduce Paganism into Judaism?

Originally the Judaizing Christians had the letters of the Disciples, but they were taken from them by the Catholics.

It was the Catholics who canonized the scriptures.

Christ came speaking in parables, and in the original text he uses the term "Gehenna." Gehenna is a place outside Jerusalem where broken pottery was dumped.

Etymology of the word Hell: The word originates from Germanic Paganism, referring to a covered or hidden place, and is related to Hel, the Scandinavian goddess of the underworld.
Hades
Hades is the Greek god of the dead (often called Pluto/Plouton). As the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon divided the cosmos, taking charge of the underworld.

Tartarus
Tartarus is a deep, sunless abyss in Greek mythology, acting as a profound dungeon of torment, suffering, and imprisonment for the wicked, monsters, and Titans. Located far below Hades, it serves as the ultimate place of divine punishment and, in some traditions, the deepest part of the underworld.

Angel in Greek mythology.
Angelos (or Angelia) is a minor deity and daughter of Zeus and Hera who serves as a messenger. She is rarely mentioned, notably appearing in one story to help her sister Europa, hiding from Hera's wrath, and eventually becoming associated with the underworld as a goddess of the dead.

Did Christ come to introduce Paganism into Judaism?

Originally the Judaizing Christians had the letters of the Disciples, but they were taken from them by the Catholics.

It was the Catholics who canonized the scriptures.

Hi CherabRam,

I am not sure why you quoted what you did above, however, I found something interesting about the Catholic canon:

The Catholic Church excluded certain books from its canon based on four main criteria:

1. Apostolic Origin: The book must be written by an apostle or under their direct authority. Books like the Gospel of Thomas or Book of Enoch were written too late or attributed to false authors.
2. Universal Acceptance (Catholicity): The book had to be widely accepted across the early Christian Church. Many apocryphal texts were only used by small, isolated groups.
3. Doctrinal Orthodoxy: The content must align with established Christian teaching. For example, Tobit’s magical elements (like using a fish’s heart to drive away demons) or 2 Maccabees’ support for prayers for the dead were accepted, but other books contained outright contradictions to core doctrine.
4. Liturgical Use and Inspiration: Books used in worship and recognized as spiritually authoritative were more likely to be included. The Church discerned that certain writings lacked the spiritual depth and transformative power of inspired Scripture.

Ultimately, books excluded from the Catholic canon—such as the Gospel of Judas, Shepherd of Hermas, or 1 Enoch—were deemed not divinely inspired, often due to late authorship, questionable doctrine, or lack of apostolic connection

 

[CherubRam]

Hi CherabRam,

I am not sure why you quoted what you did above, however, I found something interesting about the Catholic canon:

The Catholic Church excluded certain books from its canon based on four main criteria:

1. Apostolic Origin: The book must be written by an apostle or under their direct authority. Books like the Gospel of Thomas or Book of Enoch were written too late or attributed to false authors.
2. Universal Acceptance (Catholicity): The book had to be widely accepted across the early Christian Church. Many apocryphal texts were only used by small, isolated groups.
3. Doctrinal Orthodoxy: The content must align with established Christian teaching. For example, Tobit’s magical elements (like using a fish’s heart to drive away demons) or 2 Maccabees’ support for prayers for the dead were accepted, but other books contained outright contradictions to core doctrine.
4. Liturgical Use and Inspiration: Books used in worship and recognized as spiritually authoritative were more likely to be included. The Church discerned that certain writings lacked the spiritual depth and transformative power of inspired Scripture.

Ultimately, books excluded from the Catholic canon—such as the Gospel of Judas, Shepherd of Hermas, or 1 Enoch—were deemed not divinely inspired, often due to late authorship, questionable doctrine, or lack of apostolic connection

The original Book of Enoch is a parable and was divinely inspired. It was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, those books we have today are corrupted by Gnostic's.

Pope Gregory and Paganism.

The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.
Not only were the Congregations divided by Gnosticism, but enticed by philosophy and paganism also, and there were geographic divisions as well.
What were the Pagan beliefs harmonized with Christianity?

The Book of Enoch edited by R.H. Charles is only partially corrupted. Some parts are true and correct.

 

[David]

Christ came speaking in parables, and in the original text he uses the term "Gehenna." Gehenna is a place outside Jerusalem where broken pottery was dumped.

Etymology of the word Hell: The word originates from Germanic Paganism, referring to a covered or hidden place, and is related to Hel, the Scandinavian goddess of the underworld.
Hades
Hades is the Greek god of the dead (often called Pluto/Plouton). As the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon divided the cosmos, taking charge of the underworld.

Tartarus
Tartarus is a deep, sunless abyss in Greek mythology, acting as a profound dungeon of torment, suffering, and imprisonment for the wicked, monsters, and Titans. Located far below Hades, it serves as the ultimate place of divine punishment and, in some traditions, the deepest part of the underworld.

Angel in Greek mythology.
Angelos (or Angelia) is a minor deity and daughter of Zeus and Hera who serves as a messenger. She is rarely mentioned, notably appearing in one story to help her sister Europa, hiding from Hera's wrath, and eventually becoming associated with the underworld as a goddess of the dead.

Did Christ come to introduce Paganism into Judaism?

Originally the Judaizing Christians had the letters of the Disciples, but they were taken from them by the Catholics.

It was the Catholics who canonized the scriptures.

You are chasing word origins while missing what Jesus actually said.

Yes, Christ used the word Gehenna. But He did not use it to downgrade judgment into a pottery dump. He used it to warn about real divine judgment. Jesus said, “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10:28. A valley outside Jerusalem never destroyed souls. Christ Himself defined the meaning.

He said it is “the fire that never shall be quenched… where their worm dieth not” ~Mark 9:43,48, pointing straight back to God’s judgment in ~Isaiah 66:24. That is not paganism. That is prophecy fulfilled and explained by the Son of God.

The problem here is simple. You are letting etymology overrule Scripture. Words may exist in pagan cultures, but God defines His own terms. The New Testament was written in Greek because people spoke Greek. Using a Greek word does not import Greek religion any more than using the word “Thursday” means Christians worship Thor.

Paul used Greek vocabulary and still preached the true God: “Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you” ~Acts 17:23. Shared language is not shared theology.

And the claim that Catholics took the apostles’ writings away from “Judaizing Christians” is pure assertion without Scripture. The apostles already recognized inspired writings during their lifetime. Peter calls Paul’s letters Scripture ~2 Peter 3:15-16. Churches were commanded to circulate and read them ~Colossians 4:16. The Word of God was never waiting centuries for permission to exist.

Jesus did not introduce paganism into Judaism. He said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” ~Matthew 5:17.

Here is the real issue.

The serpent’s oldest strategy is still working: shift attention away from what God plainly said and bury people in side arguments. Jesus spoke about judgment to warn sinners to repent, not to start debates about mythology.

The question is not where a word once appeared in pagan stories. The question is whether you will believe the warnings of Christ.

“He that believeth not is condemned already” ~John 3:18.

That is clear. That is direct. And no amount of linguistic fog changes the words of the Lord.

 

[David]

The original Book of Enoch is a parable and was divinely inspired. It was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, those books we have today are corrupted by Gnostic's.

Pope Gregory and Paganism.

The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.
Not only were the Congregations divided by Gnosticism, but enticed by philosophy and paganism also, and there were geographic divisions as well.
What were the Pagan beliefs harmonized with Christianity?

The Book of Enoch edited by R.H. Charles is only partially corrupted. Some parts are true and correct.

You are treading on dangerous ground when you start assigning divine inspiration where God Himself has not spoken.

Do you understand what you are claiming? To say a book is inspired is to say, “Thus saith the Lord.” That is not a small statement. That is not academic curiosity. That is claiming God has spoken.

Our Lord said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. When Jesus spoke of Scripture, He spoke of the Law and the Prophets. He never once appealed to the Book of Enoch as the Word of God. Not once. And the Son of God did not overlook inspired books.

You say parts are inspired and parts are corrupted. That is not how God’s Word works. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. All of it. Not fragments. Not percentages. Not sections rescued by scholars. The words of the Lord are pure ~Psalm 12:6. Pure, not partially reliable.

Yes, Jude references a prophecy associated with Enoch ~Jude 14-15. But Paul quoted pagan poets ~Acts 17:28. That did not baptize their writings into Scripture. A man can quote truth from many places. That does not make those places God-breathed.

The real issue here is submission. Will we bow to what God has clearly revealed, or will we reach for extra writings to satisfy curiosity? Scripture warns us not “to think above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Be very careful. The moment you start expanding the boundaries of Scripture beyond what Christ and His apostles affirmed, you are no longer standing under the authority of the Word. You are standing over it.

And that is a fearful place to be.

 

[CherubRam]

You are treading on dangerous ground when you start assigning divine inspiration where God Himself has not spoken.

Do you understand what you are claiming? To say a book is inspired is to say, “Thus saith the Lord.” That is not a small statement. That is not academic curiosity. That is claiming God has spoken.

Our Lord said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. When Jesus spoke of Scripture, He spoke of the Law and the Prophets. He never once appealed to the Book of Enoch as the Word of God. Not once. And the Son of God did not overlook inspired books.

You say parts are inspired and parts are corrupted. That is not how God’s Word works. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. All of it. Not fragments. Not percentages. Not sections rescued by scholars. The words of the Lord are pure ~Psalm 12:6. Pure, not partially reliable.

Yes, Jude references a prophecy associated with Enoch ~Jude 14-15. But Paul quoted pagan poets ~Acts 17:28. That did not baptize their writings into Scripture. A man can quote truth from many places. That does not make those places God-breathed.

The real issue here is submission. Will we bow to what God has clearly revealed, or will we reach for extra writings to satisfy curiosity? Scripture warns us not “to think above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Be very careful. The moment you start expanding the boundaries of Scripture beyond what Christ and His apostles affirmed, you are no longer standing under the authority of the Word. You are standing over it.

And that is a fearful place to be.

The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) was widely read, respected, and
used for teaching by many first-century Christians and early Church Fathers, despite its later exclusion from the biblical canon by the Catholics.

 

[David]

The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) was widely read, respected, and
used for teaching by many first-century Christians and early Church Fathers, despite its later exclusion from the biblical canon by the Catholics.

The question isn’t who read the Book of Enoch. The question is did God inspire it? If Enoch were inspired by God then it would be Scripture. It is not.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16.

Jesus said, “The scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10: 35 and He never used the Book of Enoch as Scripture! The fact that Jude quotes a prophecy that could be tied to Enoch ~Jude 14 does not make the entire book Scripture any more than when Paul quoted the pagan poets made their writings Scripture ~Acts 17:28.

The line is drawn in the sand. The Book of Enoch is not inspired by God, it is not Scripture and has no authority. We are told not “to think above that which is written.” ~1 Corinthians 4:6

 

[Yesua888]

H

The original Book of Enoch is a parable and was divinely inspired. It was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, those books we have today are corrupted by Gnostic's.

Pope Gregory and Paganism.

The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.
Not only were the Congregations divided by Gnosticism, but enticed by philosophy and paganism also, and there were geographic divisions as well.
What were the Pagan beliefs harmonized with Christianity?

The Book of Enoch edited by R.H. Charles is only partially corrupted. Some parts are true and correct.

Thanks for your response ...
It appears to me that you are advocating that we open our minds to the books of enoch?
How can you verify "true and correct" ... how do you measure this, against what? thanks : )

 

[Yesua888]

The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) was widely read, respected, and
used for teaching by many first-century Christians and early Church Fathers, despite its later exclusion from the biblical canon by the Catholics.

Hi CherubRam.
I asked for clarification before (previous statement) and did not get an answer.
Do you have any further information of what you are claiming; eg proof or credible links?
Thanks

 

[David]

Moderator Notice: Account Removal

The account CherubRam has been removed from Biblical Truth Forum.

Over a period of time, this user repeatedly submitted posts promoting teachings that contradict the clear teaching of Scripture. Because this forum moderates new accounts, many of those submissions never appeared publicly. However, the volume of material being submitted showed a consistent pattern of false doctrine.

Biblical Truth Forum exists for a specific purpose. This is not a platform for promoting every opinion that claims the label “Christian.” There are many forums on the internet where anyone can promote any teaching they wish. This forum was created for the opposite reason.

Scripture warns repeatedly about false teachers entering among believers. “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you” ~2 Peter 2:1. The responsibility of those overseeing a community of believers is to guard the truth and protect the flock.

For that reason, teachings that contradict the gospel, twist clear Scripture, or promote doctrines contrary to the Word of God will not be given a platform here.

This action was taken to maintain the purpose of this forum: discussion grounded in the authority of Scripture and the defense of sound doctrine.

Thank you to the members who continue to help keep discussions focused on the truth of God's Word.

 

[Yesua888]

Moderator Notice: Account Removal

The account CherubRam has been removed from Biblical Truth Forum.

Over a period of time, this user repeatedly submitted posts promoting teachings that contradict the clear teaching of Scripture. Because this forum moderates new accounts, many of those submissions never appeared publicly. However, the volume of material being submitted showed a consistent pattern of false doctrine.

Biblical Truth Forum exists for a specific purpose. This is not a platform for promoting every opinion that claims the label “Christian.” There are many forums on the internet where anyone can promote any teaching they wish. This forum was created for the opposite reason.

Scripture warns repeatedly about false teachers entering among believers. “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you” ~2 Peter 2:1. The responsibility of those overseeing a community of believers is to guard the truth and protect the flock.

For that reason, teachings that contradict the gospel, twist clear Scripture, or promote doctrines contrary to the Word of God will not be given a platform here.

This action was taken to maintain the purpose of this forum: discussion grounded in the authority of Scripture and the defense of sound doctrine.

Thank you to the members who continue to help keep discussions focused on the truth of God's Word.

Hi David,
There were suggestions about how Judiasm and Christianity differ, especially how Jesus Christ is recognised as having lived, but not recognised as being devine, the Messiah or the Son of God.
It may be a good topic of discussion / study, which clarifies our Jesus eg.
Here are but a few:
New Testament: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh the sin of the World" John 1:29 and
Old Testament: ... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities ... Isaiah 53
This is a profound "bible study" which comes to life!

 

[David]

Hi David,
There were suggestions about how Judiasm and Christianity differ, especially how Jesus Christ is recognised as having lived, but not recognised as being devine, the Messiah or the Son of God.
It may be a good topic of discussion / study, which clarifies our Jesus eg.
Here are but a few:
New Testament: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh the sin of the World" John 1:29 and
Old Testament: ... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities ... Isaiah 53
This is a profound "bible study" which comes to life!

It is fine if we discuss these things and compare what people believe with what Scripture says. That kind of discussion can actually help clarify the truth. But CherubRam was not simply discussing the topic. He was promoting the teaching as if it were correct, and that is a big difference.

When something directly contradicts what Scripture says about Christ, it cannot be allowed to be promoted as truth. The Word of God is very clear about who Jesus is. John the Baptist declared, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” ~John 1:29. And Jesus Himself said, “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24.

So discussion for the sake of examining Scripture is one thing. Promoting teaching that denies what Scripture says about Christ is something entirely different. That is the line that had to be addressed.

 

[moleowner]

The question isn’t who read the Book of Enoch. The question is did God inspire it? If Enoch were inspired by God then it would be Scripture. It is not.

This is true unless you are a Christian of the Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church where it is scripture. So I suppose for some reason we must accept that they are wrong and Catholics and Protestants are right.

 

[Yesua888]

This is true unless you are a Christian of the Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church where it is scripture. So I suppose for some reason we must accept that they are wrong and Catholics and Protestants are right.

Seems every religion or denomination wants to be right ... I am still learning myself, so cannot answer this : (

 

[bobinfaith]

This is true unless you are a Christian of the Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church where it is scripture. So I suppose for some reason we must accept that they are wrong and Catholics and Protestants are right.

Seems every religion or denomination wants to be right ... I am still learning myself, so cannot answer this : (

Good morning, moleowner:

The Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church as a whole are not followers of the Trinity. They believe Jesus is a sole deity, called the Miaphysite doctrine.

Their scripture cannot reconcile Scripture.

Therefore, your comment whether they are wrong by the Catholics and Protestants is not the verb of this thread.

Yet I'm curious. Please clarify?

God bless you, moleowner.

Bob

 

[David]

This is true unless you are a Christian of the Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church where it is scripture. So I suppose for some reason we must accept that they are wrong and Catholics and Protestants are right.

The smoke screen here is thinking that a church’s acceptance makes a book Scripture. It does not.

The question is not whether Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant groups accept a writing. The question is whether God breathed it out as Scripture. Paul did not say, “All Scripture is whatever a religious body later receives.” He said, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. Peter did not say prophecy came by church approval. He said, “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” ~2 Peter 1:21.

That is where the truth stands. If you make tradition the standard, then all you have is one religious claim wrestling another religious claim. But since Scripture is the standard, then every church, every teacher, every council, every claim, and every extra book must bow before what God has actually spoken.

Yes, Jude refers to Enoch’s prophecy: “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these” ~Jude 1:14. But an inspired writer quoting a true statement does not make the whole source inspired Scripture. Paul quoted pagan poets in ~Acts 17:28 and ~Titus 1:12. That did not canonize pagan poetry. It only means the quoted statement served the apostle’s point under the Spirit’s direction.

That is not hard to understand unless someone wants tradition to carry more weight than the Word of God.

So no, this is not “Protestants are right because they are Protestants.” That is a smoke screen. Rome is not the judge. Ethiopia is not the judge. Eritrea is not the judge. Protestantism is not the judge. God is the judge, and His Word is the standard.

The church does not give Scripture its authority. God does. The church does not breathe out Scripture. God does.The church does not sit over the Word and decide what becomes truth. The church sits under the Word and receives what God has given.

And that is where the conscience has to stop hiding. Are we submitting to what God has spoken, or are we protecting a tradition because it is old, religious, and comfortable?

Old error is still error. Religious error is still error. A robe, a ritual, and a long history do not turn man’s words into God’s Word.

If God did not inspire Enoch as Scripture, then no church has the authority to put it beside Scripture. And if a church does that, the problem is not with Scripture. The problem is with that church stepping beyond what is written.

 

[moleowner]

The Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Church as a whole are not followers of the Trinity. They believe Jesus is a sole deity, called the Miaphysite doctrine.

Yet they still site the 27 "traditional" books of the N.T. amongst others, so you would think they would be trinitarian inclined.

That is where the truth stands. If you make tradition the standard, then all you have is one religious claim wrestling another religious claim. But since Scripture is the standard, then every church, every teacher, every council, every claim, and every extra book must bow before what God has actually spoken.

Yes but won't Ethiopians Eritreans, and from memory some Syrians and Orthodox say to you "Why do you rely on the church tradition of having a 39/27 (O/T) Bible? The "David know your Bible" equivalent in say Ethiopia will say "come and read our Bible it is as you say God breathed it out as Scripture".

The Ethiopian church isn't just some tinpot organisation. This is why there was such a fuss when Italy invaded Ethiopia in the 30's. Their leader was a Christian Emperor who claimed (possible dubiously) descent from people mentioned in the Bible, ie the the traditional 39/27 Bible.

 

[David]

Yes but won't Ethiopians Eritreans, and from memory some Syrians and Orthodox say to you "Why do you rely on the church tradition of having a 39/27 (O/T) Bible? The "David know your Bible" equivalent in say Ethiopia will say "come and read our Bible it is as you say God breathed it out as Scripture".

The Ethiopian church isn't just some tinpot organisation. This is why there was such a fuss when Italy invaded Ethiopia in the 30's. Their leader was a Christian Emperor who claimed (possible dubiously) descent from people mentioned in the Bible, ie the the traditional 39/27 Bible.

I am not saying, “I trust the 39/27 books because a church tradition told me to.” I am saying Scripture itself is the final authority, and every claim about Scripture must be tested by Scripture, not by the size, age, influence, or political history of a church body.

A church can be ancient, organized, respected, and historically significant, and still be wrong if it adds to or contradicts what God has spoken. Israel had ancient religious leadership too, but Jesus still rebuked them when they elevated tradition over the Word of God. He said, “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition” ~Mark 7:9.

The issue is not whether Ethiopia, Eritrea, Syria, Rome, Constantinople, or anyone else has a long religious history. The issue is: what has God breathed out as Scripture?

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. Peter says holy men of God “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” ~2 Peter 1:21. So the question is not, “Which church has the oldest claim?” The question is, “Which writings bear the authority of God’s own Word?”

The New Testament also shows that apostolic doctrine was already the standard before later church traditions developed. The believers “continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine” ~Acts 2:42. Paul commanded that even if “we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,” he is to be accursed ~Galatians 1:8. That means apostolic truth judges later claims. Later claims do not judge apostolic truth.

So if someone says, “Our church has extra books,” my answer is simple: those books must be tested by the writings God gave through His prophets and apostles. They do not get accepted because a religious body preserves them. They must carry divine authority and agree with the already-given Word of God.

And no, I am not impressed by the argument that a church is not a “tinpot organization.” That proves nothing doctrinally. Power, age, empire, buildings, priests, councils, and national history do not make something Scripture. The Pharisees had religious standing. Rome had religious standing. Many groups have religious standing. But Jesus said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” ~John 17:17.

That is the line. The Bible does not tell us to submit God’s Word to a church’s canon claim. It tells us to test all things by what God has spoken. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

 

[moleowner]

Well I guess that those Ethiopians and others got it wrong when they tested their books against scripture and concluded they were scripture.

I am saying Scripture itself is the final authority, and every claim about Scripture must be tested by Scripture, not by the size, age, influence, or political history of a church body.

You sound like a useful person to have around and may be able to solve some old theological controversies. Can I ask is I Jn 5:7-8 Scripture?

7For there are three that beare record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.] 8[And there are three that beare witnesse in earth], the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three agree in one.

— King James Version (1611)

Likewise the longer ending to Mark (Mk 16:9-20)

 

[moleowner]

Sorry bobinfaith I'm new to the forum and didn't notice your explain request. It doesn't seem to warrant an e-mail being sent to me.
David claims " I am saying Scripture itself is the final authority, and every claim about Scripture must be tested by Scripture, not by the size, age, influence, or political history of a church body."
I gather from him he thinks Books like Enoch fail this test. So I was just asking his opinion of the two pericopes above whether they pass the "should be scripture test" These two passages are debated amongst Bible scholars.

Ps This forum objects to the spelling of pericopes. What happened to jot and tittles

 

[David]

Well I guess that those Ethiopians and others got it wrong when they tested their books against scripture and concluded they were scripture.

You sound like a useful person to have around and may be able to solve some old theological controversies. Can I ask is I Jn 5:7-8 Scripture?


— King James Version (1611)

Likewise the longer ending to Mark (Mk 16:9-20)

The issue is not whether Ethiopians, Syrians, Romans, Protestants, or anybody else looked at writings and reached a conclusion. Men can conclude many things. The question is whether God has spoken.

That is the line Scripture draws.

“For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven” ~Psalm 119:89. Not settled by a council. Not settled by a church body. Not settled by age, numbers, or religious tradition. Settled in heaven.

“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him” ~Proverbs 30:5. Then the very next verse gives the warning: “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” ~Proverbs 30:6.

That is the fear of God missing in a lot of these discussions. People handle the Word of God like it is a religious artifact to be managed by institutions, instead of the living truth before which every man must bow.

Jesus did not say the church cannot be broken. He said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. Jesus did not say tradition sanctifies. He said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” ~John 17:17.

So when someone says, “This group tested their books and concluded they were Scripture,” my answer is simple: that conclusion still has to bow to God’s Word. Man does not breathe out Scripture. God does. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. The word “inspiration” means God-breathed. Scripture comes from God, not from religious approval.

Now to 1 John 5:7-8 and Mark 16:9-20.

Scripture does not give us a verse saying, “This exact printed wording of 1 John 5:7-8 is original.” Scripture does not give us a verse saying, “Mark 16:9-20 is original.” So I will not pretend God has spoken where He has not spoken.

But hear this clearly: no doctrine of God hangs by a thread from a disputed wording.

If someone questions the wording in 1 John 5:7, the truth about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost does not fall to the ground. Jesus commanded baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” ~Matthew 28:19. John said, “the Word was God” ~John 1:1. Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28. Peter said Ananias lied “to the Holy Ghost,” and then said, “thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God” ~Acts 5:3-4.

So do not act as though the truth of God needs one disputed phrase to survive. It does not.

The same with Mark 16:9-20. If someone raises a question about the longer ending, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not hanging from that passage alone. The angel said, “He is not here: for he is risen, as he said” ~Matthew 28:6. Luke records, “The Lord is risen indeed” ~Luke 24:34. John records Thomas seeing the risen Christ and saying, “My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28. Paul says plainly, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” ~1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

So again, no doctrine falls.

What does fall is the attempt to use textual questions as a smoke screen against the authority of Scripture.

The real issue is this: will we let God’s Word judge every human claim, or will we let human claims sit over God’s Word?

That is not a small issue. That is rebellion dressed in religious language.

Clear Scripture must govern the harder questions. Where Scripture speaks, we speak. Where Scripture is silent, we stop. And where men try to add weight to their claims by appealing to religious bodies, old traditions, or historical majorities, we answer with Scripture: “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

God’s Word judges man. Man does not judge God’s Word.

So if you are asking whether those passages should be used as the foundation for doctrine by themselves, no; doctrine must rest on clear Scripture confirmed by the whole counsel of God’s Word.