If God is loving, why does He send people to hell?

[David]

This is one of the most common and emotionally charged questions skeptics ask. The truth is, the Bible teaches that God is both loving and just. His love does not cancel His justice, and His justice does not negate His love.

God doesn’t send people to hell against their will. People choose sin, reject His truth, and refuse the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:18–20 says:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”

God has made Himself known, and no one has an excuse. He is patient and merciful.

2 Peter 3:9 says:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Yet many people reject His offer of salvation. Jesus said in John 3:19–20:

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

The good news is that God has provided the way to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 explains the gospel:

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

Jesus said in John 14:6:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Hell is not about being “not good enough.” It’s the consequence of rejecting the only One who can save us. God’s love is shown in the fact that He sent His Son to die for us so we wouldn’t have to perish.

John 3:16 says:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

In short, hell exists because God is holy and must judge sin. But His love is shown in that He made a way out, at the highest cost to Himself. No one has to go to hell. But many will, because they reject Jesus Christ.

 

[bobinfaith]

I wish the Scriptures could make it simple less the challenge to study but that's not the way it works. So I have two questions.

1. I don't mean to get technical but according to Scripture, aren't the ones who chose to separate themselves from God upon death, sending themselves to hell, not He?

2. Are there those who separated from Christ already in hell, according to Matthew 25:41-46?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - NKJV

 

[Denise60]

God does not send anyone to hell we send ourselves to hell when we dont accept Jesus in our life its Gods will we all go to heaven

 

[David]

1. I don't mean to get technical but according to Scripture, aren't the ones who chose to separate themselves from God upon death, sending themselves to hell, not He?

2. Are there those who separated from Christ already in hell, according to Matthew 25:41-46?

You said you wish Scripture was simpler. You’re not alone in that thought. Sometimes we approach the Bible seeking a quick word from God and are faced instead with a well of truth so deep we need faith, patience, and the Spirit to clear it up. It can be frustrating, but that is the way He often operates. He’s not withholding truth from us; He’s refining us through the search. “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings” (Prov. 25:2). Growth comes through digging.

As for your questions…

1. Do people send themselves to hell, or does God send them?

Picture this, God designed the road, put up the signs, and sent His Son to stand in the middle of the highway waving His arms and shouting, “Don’t go that way!” But some of us still step on the gas. When they reach destruction, it is true that they have chosen to ignore the warning, but it is also God who hands out the judgment.

Romans 2:5 says the ungodly are “storing up wrath for themselves”, their own decisions fill that cup to the brim. But Romans 6:23 says “the wages of sin is death”, and wages are paid by the employer. In other words, people freely choose rebellion, but God, in His righteous role as Judge, pays out the penalty.

Hell is not a place people stumble into by accident. People hear the truth, reject the truth, and choose to live their lives apart from God. And since God is the source of all life, to turn away from Him is the same as choosing death. But don’t miss this, it is still God’s judgment which makes it final. In Matthew 10:28, Jesus says to “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” God alone has that power.

2. Are people already in hell according to Matt. 25:41–46?

No, this passage is not referring to now, but to later. The Son of Man comes “in His glory” at the beginning of verse 41. That is not the present tense, it is the day of judgment. The picture we see in verses 41–46 is a courtroom, not a holding cell. Christ is on the throne. The nations are gathered. The verdicts are read. The righteous enter eternal life; the wicked into eternal punishment.

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, that’s what verse 41 says. It was not prepared for people. But when people reject Christ they are choosing to be numbered among the devil’s followers and will reap his punishment. Revelation 20:15 is in perfect harmony with Matthew 25:41–46, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Hell, then, is a final place of punishment. But it is not a temporary one. It is for the unredeemed dead and that is why they are there, in John 3:18, in the “second death,” and there is no coming back. The rich man in Luke 16 was in torment but still waiting for that final verdict. Hell is not the “lake of fire” yet, for that is what it will become after Christ’s return and the Great White Throne Judgment.

The point is this: God does not want any person to go to hell. He made every provision through Jesus Christ to rescue us from hell. But if a person says to God, “I do not want You,” God will honor that choice eternally. Separation from God is hell, not because God is mean or vindictive, but because He is just.

So yes, the choice is real, but His mercy is also real. God is calling every person to take the exit off the highway of sin and step on to the narrow road that leads to life (Matthew 7:13–14). Jesus paid the price for that road with His blood. And if you are walking with Him, there is no place you will ever have to fear ending up.

You don’t have to live your life trying not to go to hell; you can live your life enjoying heaven right now by walking with Jesus Christ.

 

[Hobie]

Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked.

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 12:48​

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Romans 2:16​

On that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Acts 17:31​

Because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Hebrews 9:27​

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

1 Peter 4:17​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Revelation 20:12​

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.


The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

Genesis 3:19​

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20​

All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Job 10:9​

Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?

Job 34:15​

All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29​

When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Psalm 146:4​

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Its something we must study closely and grasp with fuller understanding.

 

[David]

The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

 

[David]

What the SDA Teaches That Is Not Biblical

For clarity to our members, some of the teachings promoted within Seventh day Adventism do not come from Scripture, and this is why they are not allowed to be taught here.

1. Soul Sleep
SDA doctrine teaches the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.
Scripture teaches the opposite.
“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8.
“Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43.
The body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God ~Ecclesiastes 12:7.

2. Investigative Judgment / Close of Probation
SDA doctrine claims Christ began a second phase of judgment in 1844 and that a global “probation closing” will happen before His return.
The Bible never teaches this.
“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.
The final separation happens when Christ returns ~Matthew 25:31-46.

3. Giving Prophetic Authority to Ellen G. White
SDA doctrine treats her visions as divinely authoritative.
Scripture forbids adding to God’s Word.
“Do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:6.
“Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

4. Binding the Sabbath as a Salvation Issue
The SDA system teaches Sabbath observance as an end-time requirement.
Scripture rejects this.
“Let no man judge you… regarding sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16.
Our rest is found in Christ Himself ~Hebrews 4:9-11.

These teachings come from the SDA system, not from Scripture.
Our forum stands on the Word of God alone, which is why these doctrines cannot be promoted here.

 

[Hobie]

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

 

[Denise60]

Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked.

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 12:48​

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Romans 2:16​

On that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Acts 17:31​

Because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Hebrews 9:27​

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

1 Peter 4:17​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Revelation 20:12​

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.


The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

Genesis 3:19​

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20​

All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Job 10:9​

Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?

Job 34:15​

All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29​

When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Psalm 146:4​

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Its something we must study closely and grasp with fuller understanding.

noone sleeps in a grave the bible plainly says after death we go to heaven are hell

 

[David]

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

I’m not going by tradition or preconceived ideas. I’m going by exactly what Scripture says. You are the one bringing in preconceived ideas from SDA doctrine, because the Bible never teaches soul sleep. God says the body returns to dust but “the spirit returns to God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. Jesus said men can kill the body but “are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ~2 Corinthians 5:8. Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. None of that fits unconsciousness. The body sleeps, not the spirit. This isn’t tradition. This is the clear testimony of the Word.

 

[Yesua888]

This is one of the most common and emotionally charged questions skeptics ask. The truth is, the Bible teaches that God is both loving and just. His love does not cancel His justice, and His justice does not negate His love.

God doesn’t send people to hell against their will. People choose sin, reject His truth, and refuse the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:18–20 says:


God has made Himself known, and no one has an excuse. He is patient and merciful.

2 Peter 3:9 says:


Yet many people reject His offer of salvation. Jesus said in John 3:19–20:


The good news is that God has provided the way to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 explains the gospel:


Jesus said in John 14:6:


Hell is not about being “not good enough.” It’s the consequence of rejecting the only One who can save us. God’s love is shown in the fact that He sent His Son to die for us so we wouldn’t have to perish.

John 3:16 says:


In short, hell exists because God is holy and must judge sin. But His love is shown in that He made a way out, at the highest cost to Himself. No one has to go to hell. But many will, because they reject Jesus Christ.

It is so simple ... so many of us miss the point in so many aspects of life on this Planet ... we have free choice, we have accountability (especially where it matters most : ) If we were more focussed on Our Creator, and His Will ... this planet would be even More Awesome. Luv God's Beauty, His Miracles, His Landscapes ... there is so much to Luv!
Most importantly, I Love and Trust Him!

 

[Yesua888]

God does not send anyone to hell we send ourselves to hell when we dont accept Jesus in our life its Gods will we all go to heaven

Yes, free will, freedom of choice ... Good or Bad ... we get to choose!

 

[Yesua888]

What the SDA Teaches That Is Not Biblical

For clarity to our members, some of the teachings promoted within Seventh day Adventism do not come from Scripture, and this is why they are not allowed to be taught here.

1. Soul Sleep
SDA doctrine teaches the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.
Scripture teaches the opposite.
“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8.
“Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43.
The body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God ~Ecclesiastes 12:7.

LUV this and was not aware that this was an SDA teaching ... 2 Cor 5:8 Music to my ears : )

2. Investigative Judgment / Close of Probation
SDA doctrine claims Christ began a second phase of judgment in 1844 and that a global “probation closing” will happen before His return.
The Bible never teaches this.
“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.
The final separation happens when Christ returns ~Matthew 25:31-46.

I take it that 2 Cor 5:8 is referring to God's chosen ("believers") ... who will be with Him in Paradise?
To "once to die" therefore = no reincarnation?
To "die" is to "sleep" until Judgement Day, according to SDA?

"HOBIE"'s Post:

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This seems to clarify the above (Cor 5:8) ... those who died, not accepting Jesus, returned to dust, until Judgement Day?
GOSH and then there is this:
" Hobie said:
Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked."
I'm not sure what verse this is, but I take it then that when we (all of us) die, we turn to dust ... however, what about the verse that mentions that we will be with Him in Paradise? I'm a bit confused : )

Can ANYONE clear this up for me, thanks Linda : )

3. Giving Prophetic Authority to Ellen G. White
SDA doctrine treats her visions as divinely authoritative.
Scripture forbids adding to God’s Word.
“Do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:6.
“Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Yes! and did God appoint a representative on Earth, that we must bow down to (the pope)?

4. Binding the Sabbath as a Salvation Issue
The SDA system teaches Sabbath observance as an end-time requirement.
Scripture rejects this.
“Let no man judge you… regarding sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16.
Our rest is found in Christ Himself ~Hebrews 4:9-11.

Wow! this is a Good One, thank you ... have always felt conflicted by this teaching

These teachings come from the SDA system, not from Scripture.
Our forum stands on the Word of God alone, which is why these doctrines cannot be promoted here.

THANK YOU! Looking forward to more Profound Truths ... this is an amazing beginning for me on BTF : )

 

[bobinfaith]

It is so simple ... so many of us miss the point in so many aspects of life on this Planet ... we have free choice, we have accountability (especially where it matters most : ) If we were more focussed on Our Creator, and His Will ... this planet would be even More Awesome. Luv God's Beauty, His Miracles, His Landscapes ... there is so much to Luv!

Hello Yesua888;

Amen. It made me think of a couple Churches my wife and I attended years ago, but separate years.

There was so much teaching and preaching on LOVE but the internal strife were experiences we never encountered. This led to combativeness in the community!

After the second experience we gave our notice to the pastor that we were stepping down. A month later he resigned and went into a depression. Churches that divide leading to bitter confrontations goes beyond a sin, but a transgression.

I don't know how to articulate this; I felt perhaps in some twisted way God exposed this and led us to do a self check of ourselves going forward. Am I capable of taking years of growing up spiritually and one day throwing it all way because of a breakdown, in the Church body?!?

More to share....

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

Okay, I hear you, and will continue reading ...

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

That is very clear, thank you : )

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

I gather that those who are with The Lord in Spirit, are Believers ...
Is there any clear scripture that tells us that those who die and do not believe in Christ, are not with Him "in Paradise"?

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

There are so many verses and interpretations ... no wonder I get confused : )
I always believed that "Man had tampered with God's Word", and did not trust the Bible 100% ... here to LEARN : )

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Yesua888;

Amen. It made me think of a couple Churches my wife and I attended years ago, but separate years.

There was so much teaching and preaching on LOVE but the internal strife were experiences we never encountered. This led to combativeness in the community!

After the second experience we gave our notice to the pastor that we were stepping down. A month later he resigned and went into a depression. Churches that divide leading to bitter confrontations goes beyond a sin, but a transgression.

I don't know how to articulate this; I felt perhaps in some twisted way God exposed this and led us to do a self check of ourselves going forward. Am I capable of taking years of growing up spiritually and one day throwing it all way because of a breakdown, in the Church body?!?

More to share....

bobinfaith

As kids we always looked at the Pastor as the perfect saint and he could never do wrong in our eyes. Our parents who probably knew the challenges in the Church didn't feel it appropriate to speak about to their children in our home.

In both Churches each Pastor committed acts that were kept as secret as possible. Each secret was eventually exposed and immediately caused a schism. It worsened leading to a bitter split. This was new territory for us. It took time. We searched for a new Church, found one and learned from the experience.

Time went by and many former members from both previous Churches didn't get past the splits. Some stop going to Church, Bible studies and abandoned their ministries. Others started partying to ease their lives after a busy week at work. When we ran into old friends they just didn't bring up Jesus but can discern they had chosen the wide road instead of the narrow road. In the eyes of the world the wide road can provide instant gratification whereas the narrow road can't.

I tried and continue to try understanding this. I believe when we receive Christ in our lives, many who strive to seek first His Kingdom overlook the parable of the sower, the farmer who plants the seeds. Some seed fall onto the path and are eaten by birds, or the seed that falls on rocky ground and has no root, the seed that falls among the thorns get choked and then the seed that fall on good soil.

I believe our God is loving, so loving that none of us can fathom His love. Everyone who is saved will not lose their salvation but our God who loves us will chastise, convict, FORGIVE, discipline, correct and build us back into the heart of worship and obedience. Because of His unconditional love.

It's so imperative that we fervently pray for all Believers. Our Christian walk is wonderful but it's not always easy, especially when we go into free fall from troubles, persecution and worries that cross our paths, when we have no control. Our faith gets filled with brain chatter and we begin to feel unworthy to receive the prize, instead shudder that we will end up in the lake of fire.

Through the years God has and is still growing my wife and me up in our spiritual maturity. It's hard sustaining the good soil with our hands (faith) by removing doubt, quick fix gratification, temptation and replacing it with our discipleship of prayer, study, and seeking God's strength and to let go of self while loving and serving others.

More to share....

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

Thanks for

I’m not going by tradition or preconceived ideas. I’m going by exactly what Scripture says. You are the one bringing in preconceived ideas from SDA doctrine, because the Bible never teaches soul sleep. God says the body returns to dust but “the spirit returns to God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. Jesus said men can kill the body but “are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ~2 Corinthians 5:8. Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. None of that fits unconsciousness. The body sleeps, not the spirit. This isn’t tradition. This is the clear testimony of the Word.

clearing that up David, I've been getting pretty confused!

As kids we always looked at the Pastor as the perfect saint and he could never do wrong in our eyes. Our parents who probably knew the challenges in the Church didn't feel it appropriate to speak about to their children in our home.

In both Churches each Pastor committed acts that were kept as secret as possible. Each secret was eventually exposed and immediately caused a schism. It worsened leading to a bitter split. This was new territory for us. It took time. We searched for a new Church, found one and learned from the experience.

Time went by and many former members from both previous Churches didn't get past the splits. Some stop going to Church, Bible studies and abandoned their ministries. Others started partying to ease their lives after a busy week at work. When we ran into old friends they just didn't bring up Jesus but can discern they had chosen the wide road instead of the narrow road. In the eyes of the world the wide road can provide instant gratification whereas the narrow road can't.

I tried and continue to try understanding this. I believe when we receive Christ in our lives, many who strive to seek first His Kingdom overlook the parable of the sower, the farmer who plants the seeds. Some seed fall onto the path and are eaten by birds, or the seed that falls on rocky ground and has no root, the seed that falls among the thorns get choked and then the seed that fall on good soil.

I believe our God is loving, so loving that none of us can fathom His love. Everyone who is saved will not lose their salvation but our God who loves us will chastise, convict, FORGIVE, discipline, correct and build us back into the heart of worship and obedience. Because of His unconditional love.

It's so imperative that we fervently pray for all Believers. Our Christian walk is wonderful but it's not always easy, especially when we go into free fall from troubles, persecution and worries that cross our paths, when we have no control. Our faith gets filled with brain chatter and we begin to feel unworthy to receive the prize, instead shudder that we will end up in the lake of fire.

Through the years God has and is still growing my wife and me up in our spiritual maturity. It's hard sustaining the good soil with our hands (faith) by removing doubt, quick fix gratification, temptation and replacing it with our discipleship of prayer, study, and seeking God's strength and to let go of self while loving and serving others.

More to share....

bobinfaith

Thank you for sharing Bob : ) speak again on the morrow ...

 

[David]

I take it that 2 Cor 5:8 is referring to God's chosen ("believers") ... who will be with Him in Paradise?
To "once to die" therefore = no reincarnation?
To "die" is to "sleep" until Judgement Day, according to SDA?

"HOBIE"'s Post:

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This seems to clarify the above (Cor 5:8) ... those who died, not accepting Jesus, returned to dust, until Judgement Day?
GOSH and then there is this:
" Hobie said:
Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked."
I'm not sure what verse this is, but I take it then that when we (all of us) die, we turn to dust ... however, what about the verse that mentions that we will be with Him in Paradise? I'm a bit confused : )

Can ANYONE clear this up for me, thanks Linda : )

Scripture makes all this very clear when you allow every verse to simply say what it says.

First, the Bible does not teach that the soul falls unconscious at death. This idea is SDA doctrine, not Scripture. Paul said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He was not referring to some future resurrection moment. He was talking about the believer’s immediate state after physical death. The Greek word for “present” is endēmeō, which means to be at home. Paul longed to depart and be with Christ because it was “far better” ~Philippians 1:23. You cannot call it “far better” if he meant lying in the dust until judgment.

Second, Hebrews 9:27 settles the reincarnation question. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” One life, one death, then judgment. No cycles, no return trips.

Third, when Scripture speaks of the word “sleep” it is describing the body, not the soul. The body sleeps because it will be raised. Jesus made that distinction clear when He said, “Lazarus is asleep,” but then said plainly, “Lazarus is dead” ~John 11:11-14. The soul did not sleep. The body had died. The resurrection wakes the body, not the soul.

Fourth, Isaiah 26:19 and Daniel 12:2 describe the future bodily resurrection when God raises every person, believer and unbeliever, for judgment. This does not contradict 2 Corinthians 5:8. It completes it. Believers go to be with the Lord immediately in spirit, then their bodies are raised and glorified at Christ’s return. Unbelievers go immediately to torment, then their bodies are raised for final judgment at the great white throne ~Luke 16:22-23 ~Revelation 20:11-15.

So what about “dust”? Scripture says the body returns to dust ~Genesis 3:19. That is true for all of us. But the soul does not turn into dust. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise” ~Luke 23:43. Not someday. Not after ages of sleep. Today. The body was buried. The soul went to Christ.

The confusion comes when people mix verses about the body with verses about the soul and when they let a denomination redefine words Scripture already explained. If you keep it simple, the Bible is perfectly clear.

When a believer dies, the body goes to the grave, the soul goes immediately to be with the Lord. When an unbeliever dies, the body goes to the grave, the soul goes to torment. At the resurrection, God raises all the bodies, reunites them with the soul, and judges according to His Word.

That is the consistent testimony of Scripture from beginning to end.

 

[David]

Yes! and did God appoint a representative on Earth, that we must bow down to (the pope)?

No. God never appointed any human on earth that we must bow down to. Scripture does not give that place to the pope, to a prophet, or to any religious leader. God says He alone is Lord. “You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve” ~Matthew 4:10.

Jesus is the only Head of the church ~Colossians 1:18. The Holy Spirit is the only Teacher who leads believers into truth ~John 16:13. The Word of God is the only authority God gave to guide our faith ~2 Timothy 3:16.

Any system that demands you bow to a man or treat a person’s words as equal to Scripture is adding to what God said, and God warns against that ~Proverbs 30:6. Whether it is the pope in Catholicism or Ellen G. White in SDA, both go beyond the Word.

God did not give the church a human representative we must bow to. He gave us His Son, His Spirit, and His Word. That is enough, and that is where our obedience belongs.

 

[David]

I gather that those who are with The Lord in Spirit, are Believers ...
Is there any clear scripture that tells us that those who die and do not believe in Christ, are not with Him "in Paradise"?

Yes. The Scripture is very clear that unbelievers are not with the Lord when they die. Jesus Himself made that distinction.

In Luke 16:22 through 23 Jesus says the believer (Lazarus) was comforted, but the unbeliever was in torment immediately after death. They were in two different places, separated by a great gulf that no one can cross.

Jesus also said, “If you die in your sins, where I go you cannot come” ~John 8:21. That is as clear as it gets. Those who reject Him cannot be with Him in Paradise.

Revelation 20:11 through 15 shows the final judgment. Those whose names are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. There is no verse anywhere that says unbelievers spend even a moment in Paradise.

So yes. Believers go to Christ. Unbelievers do not. Jesus settled that. The Word is consistent from beginning to end.

 

[David]

There are so many verses and interpretations ... no wonder I get confused : )
I always believed that "Man had tampered with God's Word", and did not trust the Bible 100% ... here to LEARN : )

What you said is honest, and a lot of people feel the same way when they see so many teachings out there.

First, about what Hobie said. He warns against following the traditions of man, but the teachings he defends are exactly that. Soul sleep, investigative judgment, and unconscious waiting in the dust are not clearly taught anywhere in Scripture. They come from a system that must read its ideas into the text. The problem is not that the Scriptures are unclear. The problem is that people let someone else tell them what the verses must mean.

Now about what you said. You mentioned that you always believed “man had tampered with God’s Word,” so you did not trust it fully. Scripture itself confronts that thinking. God does not speak truth and then allow it to be corrupted. “The words of the Lord are pure words” ~Psalm 12:6. “Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven” ~Psalm 119:89. Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away” ~Matthew 24:35. If God calls His words pure, settled, and enduring, then the issue is not whether the Word is trustworthy. The issue is whether people believe what God already said.

Yes, there are many interpretations. Scripture told us that would happen. Peter said some twist the Scriptures “to their own destruction” ~2 Peter 3:16. The existence of twisted teachings does not mean God’s Word is unreliable. It means the human heart is. God does not tell you to trust a denomination, a prophet, or a system. He tells you to test every teaching by what He has spoken ~Acts 17:11.

Here is the simple truth you can hold on to. God’s Word is perfect. People’s interpretations are not. “All Scripture is God breathed” ~2 Timothy 3:16. God never said His Word was partly His and partly man’s tampering. That idea is used by the enemy to keep people doubting instead of believing.

You are doing the right thing by learning with Scripture open in front of you. When someone like Hobie makes a claim, do not ask which group is right. Ask where God said it clearly, in context. If the teaching has to be stretched or forced, it is not the Word that is confusing. It is the interpretation.

God is not hiding the truth from you. He has spoken clearly, and He can be trusted.

 

[David]

As kids we always looked at the Pastor as the perfect saint and he could never do wrong in our eyes. Our parents who probably knew the challenges in the Church didn't feel it appropriate to speak about to their children in our home.

In both Churches each Pastor committed acts that were kept as secret as possible. Each secret was eventually exposed and immediately caused a schism. It worsened leading to a bitter split. This was new territory for us. It took time. We searched for a new Church, found one and learned from the experience.

Time went by and many former members from both previous Churches didn't get past the splits. Some stop going to Church, Bible studies and abandoned their ministries. Others started partying to ease their lives after a busy week at work. When we ran into old friends they just didn't bring up Jesus but can discern they had chosen the wide road instead of the narrow road. In the eyes of the world the wide road can provide instant gratification whereas the narrow road can't.

I tried and continue to try understanding this. I believe when we receive Christ in our lives, many who strive to seek first His Kingdom overlook the parable of the sower, the farmer who plants the seeds. Some seed fall onto the path and are eaten by birds, or the seed that falls on rocky ground and has no root, the seed that falls among the thorns get choked and then the seed that fall on good soil.

I believe our God is loving, so loving that none of us can fathom His love. Everyone who is saved will not lose their salvation but our God who loves us will chastise, convict, FORGIVE, discipline, correct and build us back into the heart of worship and obedience. Because of His unconditional love.

It's so imperative that we fervently pray for all Believers. Our Christian walk is wonderful but it's not always easy, especially when we go into free fall from troubles, persecution and worries that cross our paths, when we have no control. Our faith gets filled with brain chatter and we begin to feel unworthy to receive the prize, instead shudder that we will end up in the lake of fire.

Through the years God has and is still growing my wife and me up in our spiritual maturity. It's hard sustaining the good soil with our hands (faith) by removing doubt, quick fix gratification, temptation and replacing it with our discipleship of prayer, study, and seeking God's strength and to let go of self while loving and serving others.

Thank you for sharing this. I completely agree with your thoughts and have seen the same things. It is staggering how entire groups of people can literally fall apart through sin or division. It is a sobering thing to watch, not in a fearful way but in a way that makes you realize that we have to be serious about our walk. We are not promised an easy journey and none of us are immune to falling away from the Lord. That is why the Word tells us, “Take heed lest you fall” ~1 Corinthians 10:12.

The things you mentioned in your post about people sliding into the wide road is gut-wrenching because Jesus addressed that as well. In fact, He said that the broad path is easy and many will take it ~Matthew 7:13 through 14. I have watched people who once were zealous for the Lord slowly suffocate under the cares of this life, just as the seed among the thorns ~Matthew 13:22. It is at times like that where I look at my own heart and plead with God to keep the soil of my life soft and clean. Not because I think I have it all together, but because I am well aware of how quickly I can become distracted.

On the note of God’s discipline, you are so right. The Lord loves His people far too much to allow them to stay in a state of fall. Hebrews says, “He chastens those He loves” ~Hebrews 12:6. I have experienced this in my own life and have seen this in others. The discipline is not pleasant but it always draws me back to the Lord and is a constant reminder that any strength I have comes from Him.

Praying for believers is so important. We are in a spiritual battle and Paul said that we wrestle against spiritual forces ~Ephesians 6:12. This is why we need each other, we need to love each other, we need to exhort each other, and we need to stay rooted in what the Lord has said. I see it more and more each day how people can drift when their eyes turn away from Christ. I am not saying this from a lofty place where it can’t happen to me, because I know firsthand that I can just as easily fall away without His help.

Thank you again for sharing this. I value these kinds of conversations. They make us alert, make us humble, and make us look to Jesus instead of the noise around us.

 

[Yesua888]

Thank you for sharing this. I completely agree with your thoughts and have seen the same things. It is staggering how entire groups of people can literally fall apart through sin or division. It is a sobering thing to watch, not in a fearful way but in a way that makes you realize that we have to be serious about our walk. We are not promised an easy journey and none of us are immune to falling away from the Lord. That is why the Word tells us, “Take heed lest you fall” ~1 Corinthians 10:12.

The things you mentioned in your post about people sliding into the wide road is gut-wrenching because Jesus addressed that as well. In fact, He said that the broad path is easy and many will take it ~Matthew 7:13 through 14. I have watched people who once were zealous for the Lord slowly suffocate under the cares of this life, just as the seed among the thorns ~Matthew 13:22. It is at times like that where I look at my own heart and plead with God to keep the soil of my life soft and clean. Not because I think I have it all together, but because I am well aware of how quickly I can become distracted.

On the note of God’s discipline, you are so right. The Lord loves His people far too much to allow them to stay in a state of fall. Hebrews says, “He chastens those He loves” ~Hebrews 12:6. I have experienced this in my own life and have seen this in others. The discipline is not pleasant but it always draws me back to the Lord and is a constant reminder that any strength I have comes from Him.

Praying for believers is so important. We are in a spiritual battle and Paul said that we wrestle against spiritual forces ~Ephesians 6:12. This is why we need each other, we need to love each other, we need to exhort each other, and we need to stay rooted in what the Lord has said. I see it more and more each day how people can drift when their eyes turn away from Christ. I am not saying this from a lofty place where it can’t happen to me, because I know firsthand that I can just as easily fall away without His help.

Thank you again for sharing this. I value these kinds of conversations. They make us alert, make us humble, and make us look to Jesus instead of the noise around us.

David, that was a lovely response, and I love Bob's sharing too ... it makes my journey with The Lord, come to Life. It would be so awesome if The Lord would speak directly to me (audibly and visually) ... I am realising that that He does "speak to me!, through this group, through dreams, through so many things, as long as I quieten my mind, then I "see" so much clearer : )

 

[Yesua888]

noone sleeps in a grave the bible plainly says after death we go to heaven are hell

Denise, Do you have a verse to share, please : )

 

[Walter Gabriel]

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
[ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

 

[bobinfaith]

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
[ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

Hello Walter;

No, I would not consider you wrong if you considered these Words 100% accurate and in the literary forms of parables / metaphors, symbolic.

I'm curious. Does anyone studying the many Passages as having a teaching message for each one, or are these repeated reminders from God?

God bless you, Walter and your entire family.

Bob

 

[David]

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
[ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

I will answer you plainly, using Scripture alone. Your conclusion is illogical if all of Scripture is allowed to speak. It is constructed by picking and choosing verses, and redefining some as figurative when they conflict with your desired conclusion.

Jesus Himself is the best problem for your position. He spoke of judgment in terms other than simple termination. He said, “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word is used to describe the duration of both the punishment and the life. If one is eternal, so is the other. Scripture will not allow you to make one literal and the other temporary.

“Destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10:28 does not refer to annihilation. The Greek word apollymi, often translated destroy, means ruin, loss, or destruction of purpose, not non-existence. The same word is used of the lost sheep in Luke 15:4. The sheep was destroyed in the sense of being lost, not deleted from existence.

“Eternal destruction” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9 defines itself. Paul says it is “away from the presence of the Lord.” Separation is the punishment, not extinction. If someone does not exist, there is no way to separate them from someone or something else.

John 3:36 says of the one who does not believe, “shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Wrath abiding is ongoing, not temporary.

Now to Revelation. You asked, Is the language in Revelation 20:10, only talking about the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Yes it is. But immediately following, Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Scripture puts them in the same place, not a different one.

Revelation 14:11 is not figurative of harmless smoke. It says “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.” No rest day nor night is conscious experience, not absence of experience.

James 3:6 is not describing annihilation either. It says hell sets the tongue on fire. Fire there is corrupting and consuming in effect, not existence eliminating.

As for “God is love” ~1 John 4:8, Scripture never uses that truth to negate judgment. The same John records Jesus speaking more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Love does not trump holiness. The cross proves both.

The bottom line is this. Scripture teaches eternal conscious punishment, not because God takes pleasure in it, but because sin against an infinite, holy God has eternal consequence. The same Bible that says God is love also says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” ~Hebrews 10:31.

If you feel you must reinterpret clear warnings as figurative to maintain a preferred conclusion, that is not obedience to Scripture. That is Scripture being contorted.

My advice is this. Let every text speak plainly, even the ones that make you uncomfortable. The goal is not emotional comfort. The goal is truth.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Hello Walter;

No, I would not consider you wrong if you considered these Words 100% accurate and in the literary forms of parables / metaphors, symbolic.

I'm curious. Does anyone studying the many Passages as having a teaching message for each one, or are these repeated reminders from God?

God bless you, Walter and your entire family.

Bob

I would say yes, some are repeated reminders from God. I cannot explain the subject maybe someone else can?
===========

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6


Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

 

[Walter Gabriel]

you

I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6


Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

 

[Walter Gabriel]

I will answer you plainly, using Scripture alone. Your conclusion is illogical if all of Scripture is allowed to speak. It is constructed by picking and choosing verses, and redefining some as figurative when they conflict with your desired conclusion.

Jesus Himself is the best problem for your position. He spoke of judgment in terms other than simple termination. He said, “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word is used to describe the duration of both the punishment and the life. If one is eternal, so is the other. Scripture will not allow you to make one literal and the other temporary.

“Destroy both soul and body in hell” ~Matthew 10:28 does not refer to annihilation. The Greek word apollymi, often translated destroy, means ruin, loss, or destruction of purpose, not non-existence. The same word is used of the lost sheep in Luke 15:4. The sheep was destroyed in the sense of being lost, not deleted from existence.

“Eternal destruction” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9 defines itself. Paul says it is “away from the presence of the Lord.” Separation is the punishment, not extinction. If someone does not exist, there is no way to separate them from someone or something else.

John 3:36 says of the one who does not believe, “shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Wrath abiding is ongoing, not temporary.

Now to Revelation. You asked, Is the language in Revelation 20:10, only talking about the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Yes it is. But immediately following, Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Scripture puts them in the same place, not a different one.

Revelation 14:11 is not figurative of harmless smoke. It says “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.” No rest day nor night is conscious experience, not absence of experience.

James 3:6 is not describing annihilation either. It says hell sets the tongue on fire. Fire there is corrupting and consuming in effect, not existence eliminating.

As for “God is love” ~1 John 4:8, Scripture never uses that truth to negate judgment. The same John records Jesus speaking more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Love does not trump holiness. The cross proves both.

The bottom line is this. Scripture teaches eternal conscious punishment, not because God takes pleasure in it, but because sin against an infinite, holy God has eternal consequence. The same Bible that says God is love also says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” ~Hebrews 10:31.

If you feel you must reinterpret clear warnings as figurative to maintain a preferred conclusion, that is not obedience to Scripture. That is Scripture being contorted.

My advice is this. Let every text speak plainly, even the ones that make you uncomfortable. The goal is not emotional comfort. The goal is truth.

I will take a much closer look at all your scriptures right now I'm just super tired.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

I will answer you plainly, using Scripture alone.

I appreciate very much the scriptures and your commentary.
I am interested primarily in what is explained in [ scripture alone ], without even one sentence of commentary.

=======

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. - James 3:6



"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10

 

[Walter Gabriel]

It looks like these scriptures in the Bible can be interpreted in different ways?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. - James 3:6



"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10

 

[Yesua888]

I will answer you plainly, using Scripture alone. Your conclusion is illogical if all of Scripture is allowed to speak. It is constructed by picking and choosing verses, and redefining some as figurative when they conflict with your desired conclusion.

The bottom line is this. Scripture teaches eternal conscious punishment, not because God takes pleasure in it, but because sin against an infinite, holy God has eternal consequence. The same Bible that says God is love also says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” ~Hebrews 10:31.

My advice is this. Let every text speak plainly, even the ones that make you uncomfortable. The goal is not emotional comfort. The goal is truth.

Hi David,
These three sentences jump out for me ...
In life's challenges, it is so easy to pick and choose verses to back up something that we do want to believe, and perhaps disregard those that we do not want to believe ...
For example, if a couple are having marrital problems, and many verses teach that we must not live in falsehood (denial) - Ephesians 4:25
Then when digging deeper, a particular verse suggests that a Christian must stay in the marriage if the unbeliever does not leave. 1 Peter 3:1–2
The verses found in the bible can be very confronting, when looking for solutions!
Anyway, I thought I would slip this in because your response sparked something in me : )
I may put together a post in this regard, thanks Linda

 

[Yesua888]

It looks like these scriptures in the Bible can be interpreted in different ways?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. - James 3:6



"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10

Hi Walter,
Would you care to share the different interpretations, as I have read both of your last posts, and see that the interpretations are the same. Thanks Linda
PS, please do not feel obliged to do so, because it really does not matter too much I guess?

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Hi Walter,
Would you care to share the different interpretations, as I have read both of your last posts, and see that the interpretations are the same. Thanks Linda
PS, please do not feel obliged to do so, because it really does not matter too much I guess?

Destroy both soul and body
Will disappear nowhere to be found
Eternal Destruction
the wicked will be cut off
Will not see life

Eternal punishment

The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever

=================

Let's interpret for a minute, that each word keeps its Bible explained meaning - no change.

Destroy both soul and body means, Destroy both soul and body
Disappear nowhere to be found means, Disappear nowhere to be found.
Eternal destruction means, Eternal destruction.
The wicked will be cut off.
Will not see life
Eternal punishment.
The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever

Which words in your opinion disagree with the majority that do agree?

=================
I am open to any suggestions.

 

[David]

I am interested primarily in what is explained in [ scripture alone ], without even one sentence of commentary.

Walter, here is the key issue, and it is not about whether the verses you listed are true. They are. Every one of them is Scripture. The issue is how Scripture itself tells us it must be read.

The Bible never allows us to assemble doctrine by collecting isolated verses and treating them as self-interpreting. God commands that His Word be handled in context and in harmony with the whole. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. Not some Scripture. Not selected Scripture. All of it.

Peter warns that Scripture can be misunderstood when handled improperly. He says that some things in Paul’s writings are “hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” ~2 Peter 3:16. Notice the problem is not Scripture. The problem is twisting Scripture by isolating it.

Jesus Himself rebuked this exact method. When the Sadducees denied the resurrection, Jesus said, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” ~Matthew 22:29. They quoted Scripture, but they ignored how Scripture fits together.

The Bible interprets the Bible. God does not contradict Himself. “For God is not the author of confusion” ~1 Corinthians 14:33. That means any conclusion that silences or redefines clear passages to preserve a preferred idea is not coming from Scripture, but from the reader.

Scripture also tells us how understanding comes. “Line upon line, precept upon precept” ~Isaiah 28:10. That means truth is built cumulatively, not selectively. No single verse is allowed to override the full testimony of God’s Word.

This is why proof-texting is dangerous. A verse can be quoted accurately and still be used inaccurately. Satan himself quoted Scripture to Jesus in the wilderness, but he removed it from context and intention ~Matthew 4:6. Jesus corrected him with Scripture in full context.

So the issue is not whether a verse says “destroy,” “cut off,” or “eternal punishment.” The issue is how Scripture itself defines those terms across the whole Bible. We do not get to redefine words when other passages already explain them.

The Bible does not ask us to choose which verses feel clearest to us. It commands us to submit to all of them. “Thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. Truth does not contradict truth.

Scripture alone does not mean Scripture isolated. It means Scripture interpreted by Scripture, in context, without silencing any part of what God has spoken.


That is not adding commentary. That is obedience to how God tells us His Word must be handled.

 

[David]

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. - James 3:6



"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10

Walter, This is no longer about clarity in Scripture, but about reading verses in isolation without submission to the whole counsel of God. The Bible never approves that method and warns against it plainly ~2 Peter 3:16.

I understand your request. You want Scripture to be interpreted by Scripture, without a layer of commentary on top of the Bible. I have no problem with that request. So here goes, with only the Bible itself speaking, line by line.

First, Scripture establishes the duration of punishment with the duration of life.

“These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46

The same Greek word aiōnios is used for both. Scripture itself links punishment and life. It does not allow for one to be eternal while the other ceases.

Second, Scripture defines what “destroy” means by how it is used in other places.

“The Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost” ~Luke 19:10

This uses the same word translated “destroy” in Matthew 10:28. The lost sheep was not annihilated. It was alive but ruined in condition and purpose. Scripture defines its own terms.

Third, Scripture itself defines “eternal destruction” as separation, not non-existence.

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9

One cannot be “away from” the presence of the Lord if one does not exist. The text itself defines destruction as banishment, not annihilation.

Fourth, Scripture says the state of the unbeliever after death is ongoing wrath.

“He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” ~John 3:36

“Abideth” is present and ongoing. Scripture does not say the wrath of God comes to an end.

Fifth, Scripture explicitly describes conscious torment with no rest.

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night” ~Revelation 14:11

“No rest day nor night” is a description of experience, not of absence.

Sixth, Scripture places human beings in the same final destination as the devil.

“And the devil… was cast into the lake of fire… and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” ~Revelation 20:10

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” ~Revelation 20:15

Scripture places both in the same lake of fire, and no distinction of duration is given.

Seventh, Scripture demonstrates God’s love does not preclude judgment.

“God is love” ~1 John 4:8

“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” ~Hebrews 10:31

Both statements are equally Scripture. One does not supersede or negate the other.

Taken together, Scripture teaches conscious ongoing punishment, not symbolic or representational annihilation. The Bible itself defines its terms, its duration, and its meaning.

This conclusion does not come from commentary, tradition, or philosophy. It comes from letting all of Scripture speak, without silencing the parts that make us uncomfortable.

“And let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4

 

[David]

Hi David,
These three sentences jump out for me ...
In life's challenges, it is so easy to pick and choose verses to back up something that we do want to believe, and perhaps disregard those that we do not want to believe ...
For example, if a couple are having marrital problems, and many verses teach that we must not live in falsehood (denial) - Ephesians 4:25
Then when digging deeper, a particular verse suggests that a Christian must stay in the marriage if the unbeliever does not leave. 1 Peter 3:1–2
The verses found in the bible can be very confronting, when looking for solutions!
Anyway, I thought I would slip this in because your response sparked something in me : )
I may put together a post in this regard, thanks Linda

Linda, what you just highlighted is exactly the issue. When we feel the pressure in life we all have the urge to shop in the Bible, grabbing verses that feel good to us and leaving those on the shelf that pierce us. Scripture was never intended to be our cosmic comfort quilt to drape over our desires. Scripture is intended to re-calibrate our lives back to God’s truth.

James said that God’s Word is like a mirror ~James 1:23–25. A mirror doesn’t debate with us, haggle with us, or change with our mood. It just reflects back at us what’s there. The issue is not that the mirror is brutal. The issue is that we look in it, don’t like what we see, and then pretend nothing is there.

Your marriage illustration is powerful. God’s Word truthfully declares things about honesty, faithfulness and endurance and sometimes those declarations run right up against our feelings. Scripture never promises us the easiest way. Scripture promises us the best way. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4, including the narratives we spin to make sin seem justifiable.

This is why it matters so much that we let all of Scripture speak. God’s Word was never created to validate our hunches. It was created to recalibrate them. “For the word of God is quick, and powerful… and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” ~Hebrews 4:12. When the Word begins reading us instead of us reading it, then that’s when growth gets real.

If you do write that post it will bless a lot of people. Many of us aren’t stuck because the Bible is vague, we’re stuck because it is crystal clear in the ways that confront us. Blessing happens when we quit editing the Word to accommodate our lives and start letting God use His Word to mold them.

Thank you for sharing this. A teachable heart is a usable heart in God’s hands ~James 4:6.

 

[David]

It looks like these scriptures in the Bible can be interpreted in different ways?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"The tongue also is a fire, the world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, defiling all the body, and setting on fire the course of nature, and itself being set on fire by Gehenna. - James 3:6



"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10

Walter, the problem is not that Scripture is unclear, but that a method is being used that Scripture itself does not authorize. Doctrine does not come from plucking verses out of context and forcing them to a single meaning based on English definitions. Scripture defines its own terms by how they are used in multiple contexts. “Destroy,” “perish,” “cut off,” “not see life” must be taken to mean what the Bible itself says they mean, not some presupposition that they all mean cessation of existence. When Scripture elsewhere defines those terms, it uniformly uses language of ruin, separation, exclusion, and continuing consequence. It does not use language of non-existence.

The same goes for symbolism. Scripture itself determines when language is meant symbolically by the context, genre, and explanations. Revelation uses symbols, but it also explains what those symbols mean. When the text says there is torment with “no rest day nor night” and duration “forever and ever,” it is not being ambiguous. Symbolic imagery is being used to describe a real, ongoing state, not to negate it.

Nor is this doctrine taught to scare people or win arguments. Scripture says plainly what it means about judgment because it also says plainly what it means about salvation. The warnings matter because Christ rescues people from something real. If judgment is mitigated, postponed, or reinterpreted, the gospel itself is muted.

Scripture alone does not mean Scripture isolated. It means Scripture allowed to interpret Scripture, without silencing the parts that offend us. When all of God’s Word is allowed to speak, the testimony is uniform. The goal is not comfort. The goal is truth.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Doctrine does not come from plucking verses out of context and forcing them to a single meaning based on English definitions.

Am I to believe "eternal torment" Takes precedence over the rest of the words in the Bible?

The way I see it, the people that believe in "Eternal Conscious Torment" Are plucking verses and forcing me to believe in only this concept, above the other words in the Bible!

Does the bible ever explain "destruction" Also means to be alive somehow? No it does Not.

Why would Jesus offer eternal life to some and explain some "will not see life" John 3:16, 36
Why would Jesus offer life to people that already have life in Hell or Heaven?

========

• Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Gehenna), indicating complete ruin, not just death.
• Parable of the Weeds (Matthew 13:40-42): "As the weeds are gathered and burned up, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will take out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
• Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46): Describes the wicked being sent to "eternal punishment" (or "eternal fire"), contrasting it with eternal life for the righteous.
• Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV): "who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".

Psalm 37:10:

• The wicked will be gone in "a little while" (New International Version (NIV), English Standard Version (ESV)).
• You will search for them, and they "will not be there" or "not be found" (New Living Translation (NLT), King James Version (KJV)).
• Psalm 37:35-36:
  • Refers to seeing a wicked person "flourishing like a luxuriant native tree" who then "passed away, and behold, he was no more" (ESV).
  • Searched for them, but they "could not be found" (NIV).
• Isaiah 41:12:
  • Speaks of searching for enemies and not finding them; "those who war against you will be as nothing and non-existent" (NIV).
  • They "shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought, that contend with thee" (KJV).
• Proverbs 2:22: "But the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be uprooted from it" (New King James Version).
• Psalm 37:20-22: "But the wicked shall perish; The enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of meadows, They consume; They vanish like smoke" (NKJV).
• Psalm 37:38: "But the transgressors shall be cut off together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off" (NKJV).
• Proverbs 24:20: "For the evil man has no future; the lamp of the wicked will be put out" (ESV), echoing the theme of their end.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

...

I wholeheartedly agree with you this should be a subject for prayer.

We may disagree on some beliefs, but I believe that we both love Jesus and his Father very much.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Jesus explains if your eye causes you to stumble cut it out, does Jesus ever explain, he is speaking figuratively? No!

What would happen if we took Jesus words here literally as a predominant teaching?

 

[bobinfaith]

Am I to believe "eternal torment" Takes precedence over the rest of the words in the Bible?

Hello Walter;

From reading all 8 of your inquisitive posts and replies from members, they are responding but it only seems to produce more of your questions. There isn't a one time Bible presentation or teaching at Biblical Truth Forum that will answer your questions, once and for all.

If you're only seeking a bottom line answer to your questions without a thesis for the answers, that's the way I'm reading your posts. I feel the responding posts have helped a little.

The information I'm reading from the other members is solely from the Bible, thus "God speaking to us."

I also read how destructive these verses sound and I shudder. From our study we learn to grasp the destruction what God speaks of, is divine judgment for sin.

I asked everyone in my previous post about the various destructive Passages as having a separate teaching message for each. In one response, David shared, the Bible never allows us to assemble doctrine (or Passages) by collecting isolated verses and treating them as self-interpreting. I agree.

I've also asked many of the same questions (and other questions) and it's taken a personal academic discipline on my part to study and learn the answers I seek begin to unravel daily and timely. Circumstances in my life battling with sin and obedience plays a profound part.

The destructive Passages still exist in the Old and New Testaments, and when they're all combined are nothing compared to divine judgment for sin. I strive to stay away from the low road and seek the high road, to live in divine obedience with our Father in Heaven. I believe.

Each day I have a loving, intimate relationship with our Lord and Savior who unconditionally loves, covers and protects me, my wife and immediate family.

Walter, I don't know you, your faith, or where you are in your life. I pray you are truly blessed with a beloved family, seriously. Therefore, this is how I've received your 8 posts.

God bless you, brother, if your questions haven't been answered with peace of mind, then I'll continue praying God will reveal these things to you.

Bob

 

[Walter Gabriel]

...

Thanks for the explanations.

Still no one has explained why the idea of "Eternal Conscious Torment" takes precedence?

Why can't the word destroyed mean destroyed?

Why do the words Eternal Conscious Torment take precedence over: destroyed and will not see life?

 

[Walter Gabriel]

God bless you, brother, if your questions haven't been answered with peace of mind, then I'll continue praying God will reveal these things to you.

Bob

Honestly brother, I list only scriptures to let the scriptures do the explaining.

Shouldn't Jesus and the Apostles words Be Paramount?

 

[bobinfaith]

Thanks for the explanations. Still no one has explained why the idea of "Eternal Conscious Torment" takes precedence? Why can't the word destroyed mean destroyed? Why do the words Eternal Conscious Torment take precedence over: destroyed and will not see life?

Honestly brother, I list only scriptures to let the scriptures do the explaining. Shouldn't Jesus and the Apostles words Be Paramount?

Hello Walter;

In the circle of "Christianese language" I've never heard of "Eternal Conscious Torment." It sounds like opposing interpretations.

Why can't extreme words like destroyed mean destroyed? When we dig deeper into the Bible, part of the prerequisite of study are the Hebrew, Greek and especially English, all having multi-level definitions incorporates in the metaphors, parables, symbolistic and interpretation teaching tools that Jesus used for those "ears to hear" and those "in the light."

Still, God promises He will make His Word plain for our personal growth in understanding and knowledge. He also empowers us to build up our academic studies of His Word.

Examples of Jesus and His Apostles' words being paramount was from the opening thread of this topic.

Bob

 

[Walter Gabriel]

and

Thanks for the conversation, I will never believe God is going to barbecue people day and night for
10,000 Zillion years, just because they are a unbeliever. Sorry we don't speak the same language!

I agree with all Jesus words when he says: "will not see life" John 3:36, God can "destroy" both soul and body Matthew 10:28, "eternal fire" Matthew 25:41, will get "Everlasting Punishment" Matthew 25:46 and "only few are finding the road that leads to life" Matthew 7:14 Jesus says unbelievers will "perish" John 3:16

Water on a finger would offer no literal relief for someone in extreme fiery torment, confirming the scene in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is symbolic.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

how would water on someone's finger help the rich man in his extreme suffering of being on fire? could it be possible that this illustration is symbolic?

AI Overview

No, a drop of water wouldn't physically help someone in a literal fire, confirming the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is symbolic, illustrating the spiritual torment of greed and self-indulgence versus the spiritual comfort of God's grace, with the "fire" representing judgment and the "water" representing mercy, emphasizing a reversal of fortunes and a plea for the living to heed scripture.

 

[Yesua888]

Linda, what you just highlighted is exactly the issue. When we feel the pressure in life we all have the urge to shop in the Bible, grabbing verses that feel good to us and leaving those on the shelf that pierce us. Scripture was never intended to be our cosmic comfort quilt to drape over our desires. Scripture is intended to re-calibrate our lives back to God’s truth.

James said that God’s Word is like a mirror ~James 1:23–25. A mirror doesn’t debate with us, haggle with us, or change with our mood. It just reflects back at us what’s there. The issue is not that the mirror is brutal. The issue is that we look in it, don’t like what we see, and then pretend nothing is there.

Your marriage illustration is powerful. God’s Word truthfully declares things about honesty, faithfulness and endurance and sometimes those declarations run right up against our feelings. Scripture never promises us the easiest way. Scripture promises us the best way. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4, including the narratives we spin to make sin seem justifiable.

This is why it matters so much that we let all of Scripture speak. God’s Word was never created to validate our hunches. It was created to recalibrate them. “For the word of God is quick, and powerful… and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” ~Hebrews 4:12. When the Word begins reading us instead of us reading it, then that’s when growth gets real.

If you do write that post it will bless a lot of people. Many of us aren’t stuck because the Bible is vague, we’re stuck because it is crystal clear in the ways that confront us. Blessing happens when we quit editing the Word to accommodate our lives and start letting God use His Word to mold them.

Thank you for sharing this. A teachable heart is a usable heart in God’s hands ~James 4:6.

Thank You David, you are so encouraging, and are teaching me so much about God's Word ... I never thought I would be so fortunate to have teachings like this ... I feel truly blessed, Brother

 

[Yesua888]

Am I to believe "eternal torment" Takes precedence over the rest of the words in the Bible?

The way I see it, the people that believe in "Eternal Conscious Torment" Are plucking verses and forcing me to believe in only this concept, above the other words in the Bible!

Does the bible ever explain "destruction" Also means to be alive somehow? No it does Not.

Why would Jesus offer eternal life to some and explain some "will not see life" John 3:16, 36
Why would Jesus offer life to people that already have life in Hell or Heaven?

========

• Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Gehenna), indicating complete ruin, not just death.
• Parable of the Weeds (Matthew 13:40-42): "As the weeds are gathered and burned up, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will take out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
• Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46): Describes the wicked being sent to "eternal punishment" (or "eternal fire"), contrasting it with eternal life for the righteous.
• Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV): "who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".

Psalm 37:10:

• The wicked will be gone in "a little while" (New International Version (NIV), English Standard Version (ESV)).
• You will search for them, and they "will not be there" or "not be found" (New Living Translation (NLT), King James Version (KJV)).
• Psalm 37:35-36:
  • Refers to seeing a wicked person "flourishing like a luxuriant native tree" who then "passed away, and behold, he was no more" (ESV).
  • Searched for them, but they "could not be found" (NIV).
• Isaiah 41:12:
  • Speaks of searching for enemies and not finding them; "those who war against you will be as nothing and non-existent" (NIV).
  • They "shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought, that contend with thee" (KJV).
• Proverbs 2:22: "But the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be uprooted from it" (New King James Version).
• Psalm 37:20-22: "But the wicked shall perish; The enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of meadows, They consume; They vanish like smoke" (NKJV).
• Psalm 37:38: "But the transgressors shall be cut off together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off" (NKJV).
• Proverbs 24:20: "For the evil man has no future; the lamp of the wicked will be put out" (ESV), echoing the theme of their end.

Hi Walter Gabriel,
All I can say to this, is that I am here to learn the Scriptures, especially how to interpret them.
I have not been sure about your questions and the quoted verses shared?
They have come across as rather cryptic or not clear as to your intension or questions about them.
Anyway, if you wish to learn how to interpret Scripture, and see it in light that God intended it, you are in the right place to learn : )
Blessings, Linda

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Hi Walter Gabriel,
All I can say to this, is that I am here to learn the Scriptures, especially how to interpret them.
I have not been sure about your questions and the quoted verses shared?
They have come across as rather cryptic or not clear as to your intension or questions about them.
Anyway, if you wish to learn how to interpret Scripture, and see it in light that God intended it, you are in the right place to learn : )
Blessings, Linda

I don't interpret scripture, and I don't allow other people to interpret scripture for me!!

Should I be listening to the words from Jesus recorded in the Gospels, or should I listen to the words He never spoke?

Why would I read Jesus words in the first place, if I'm going to listen to an interpreter in the second place?

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Thank you to everyone for your comments and advice, I do appreciate it. I will keep all your words in mind.

I do believe we have one thing in common even though we disagree on some beliefs, we both love Jesus and his Father very much and we respect the words in the Bible.

I extend to everyone my kindness, respect and may peace be with you all.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Some read The Bible to seek for truth, allowing scripture to speak for itself.

Some interpret scripture and explain a different meaning.


Allowing scripture to speak for itself:

Matthew 10:34
New International Version
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “’a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

When we read verse 35 and 36 doesn't it help us to understand verse 34 better?

 

[David]

Am I to believe "eternal torment" Takes precedence over the rest of the words in the Bible?

The way I see it, the people that believe in "Eternal Conscious Torment" Are plucking verses and forcing me to believe in only this concept, above the other words in the Bible!

Does the bible ever explain "destruction" Also means to be alive somehow? No it does Not.

Why would Jesus offer eternal life to some and explain some "will not see life" John 3:16, 36
Why would Jesus offer life to people that already have life in Hell or Heaven?

Walter, this was answered from Scripture above and reposting it from Scripture does not change the text.

Attempting to re-define God’s words to make judgment more palatable does not erase them. Scripture is very clear, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent” ~Numbers 23:19. God’s word remains whether we like it or not.

“I cannot believe God would do such things” is not a biblical argument. That is judging God by man’s fallen instincts. Scripture says, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” ~Romans 9:20. It is not a question of whether it feels acceptable to us. It is a question of whether God has said.

Misquoting the meaning of Scripture is something God directly condemns. “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” ~Proverbs 30:6. “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” ~Revelation 22:18. Rewriting judgment to make it more comfortable is not correction. It is change.

Mis-teaching on judgment is not benign. Scripture says, “There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies” ~2 Peter 2:1. God does not address false teaching as a personality issue. He addresses it as a threat.

Jesus Himself gave a horrific warning against leading people astray. “Whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea” ~Matthew 18:6. Allowing people to stumble over judgment by denying what Christ clearly taught is not love. It is abuse.

This is not a game and this is not an academic discussion. “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” ~2 Corinthians 5:10. If you are made right with God by repentance and faith in Christ then judgment is no longer to be dreaded. But comforting sinners with lies does not make them ready. It leaves them vulnerable.

Scripture’s command is clear and immediate. “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” ~Acts 3:19. Altering the truth will not help anyone. Submitting to it will.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Walter, this was answered from Scripture above and reposting it from Scripture does not change the text.

Thank you for all your comments..

I agree with all Jesus words when he says: "will not see life" John 3:36, God can "destroy" both soul and body Matthew 10:28, "eternal fire" Matthew 25:41, will get "Everlasting Punishment" Matthew 25:46 and "only few are finding the road that leads to life" Matthew 7:14 Jesus says unbelievers will "perish" John 3:16

I do favor the majority of Jesus' words and consider the Rich man and Lazarus illustration to be symbolic.

I consider Jesus words to be an Everlasting Punishment, Not an Everlasting Punishing, where the wicked also get life.

 

[Yesua888]

Hello Walter;

From reading all 8 of your inquisitive posts and replies from members, they are responding but it only seems to produce more of your questions. There isn't a one time Bible presentation or teaching at Biblical Truth Forum that will answer your questions, once and for all.

If you're only seeking a bottom line answer to your questions without a thesis for the answers, that's the way I'm reading your posts. I feel the responding posts have helped a little.

The information I'm reading from the other members is solely from the Bible, thus "God speaking to us."

I also read how destructive these verses sound and I shudder. From our study we learn to grasp the destruction what God speaks of, is divine judgment for sin.

I asked everyone in my previous post about the various destructive Passages as having a separate teaching message for each. In one response, David shared, the Bible never allows us to assemble doctrine (or Passages) by collecting isolated verses and treating them as self-interpreting. I agree.

I've also asked many of the same questions (and other questions) and it's taken a personal academic discipline on my part to study and learn the answers I seek begin to unravel daily and timely. Circumstances in my life battling with sin and obedience plays a profound part.

The destructive Passages still exist in the Old and New Testaments, and when they're all combined are nothing compared to divine judgment for sin. I strive to stay away from the low road and seek the high road, to live in divine obedience with our Father in Heaven. I believe.

Each day I have a loving, intimate relationship with our Lord and Savior who unconditionally loves, covers and protects me, my wife and immediate family.

Walter, I don't know you, your faith, or where you are in your life. I pray you are truly blessed with a beloved family, seriously. Therefore, this is how I've received your 8 posts.

God bless you, brother, if your questions haven't been answered with peace of mind, then I'll continue praying God will reveal these things to you.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Thank you for this response ...
I have put people (from other forums) off side in the past, with my direct questions about isolated bible texts.
I have prayed to the Father for HELP with this, on how to communicate properly.
This time around, I am either protected or I am getting it ... both I would say : )
As "new" Christians, when we first start out, we have programming about the bible (and many things for that matter), from the outside world to work through. Therefore all the questions, as we want to know what certain bible verses mean.
It takes time and commitment, to get past this initial stage as a "new" Christian. I say "new" because many of us have believed in Jesus for sometime, until we take that next step deeper in our "walk with Him".
The "contraversial" verses that come to mine for me are as follows; I should not quote the m because I am doing this from memory (don't really want to look for them and get into this right now); so
In a nutshell my questions were about slavery and women's subservient roles (seen in the old testament); why this and why that!?
I do believe that I have come along way, and that is Divine Providence, because I asked Him to teach me, and walk with me.
Thank you Bob, and David for all your amazing efforts and love of the Lord, to keep helping others, to understand Scripture, and to feel safe on this forum.
There was a time that I felt that scripture was too hard to understand, and also thought that perhaps the bible contradicted itself.
Everything has to be read in Context!
I am now loving Scripture, expecially because I receive such amazing responses and guidance.
Thank you so much

 

[Yesua888]

I don't interpret scripture, and I don't allow other people to interpret scripture for me!!

Should I be listening to the words from Jesus recorded in the Gospels, or should I listen to the words He never spoke?

Why would I read Jesus words in the first place, if I'm going to listen to an interpreter in the second place?

Hi Walter,
"You may have a point there, and there is a possibility that those who are giving their "interpretation/s" actually know Scripture very well ...
Stick around, keep an open mind, and keep searching and praying for answers.
I do not know Scripbure well, and that is why I am here, to learn as much as I can.
All the best, Linda

 

[bobinfaith]

Hi Bob,
Thank you for this response ...
I have put people (from other forums) off side in the past, with my direct questions about isolated bible texts.
I have prayed to the Father for HELP with this, on how to communicate properly.
This time around, I am either protected or I am getting it ... both I would say : )
As "new" Christians, when we first start out, we have programming about the bible (and many things for that matter), from the outside world to work through. Therefore all the questions, as we want to know what certain bible verses mean.
It takes time and commitment, to get past this initial stage as a "new" Christian. I say "new" because many of us have believed in Jesus for sometime, until we take that next step deeper in our "walk with Him".
The "contraversial" verses that come to mine for me are as follows; I should not quote the m because I am doing this from memory (don't really want to look for them and get into this right now); so
In a nutshell my questions were about slavery and women's subservient roles (seen in the old testament); why this and why that!?
I do believe that I have come along way, and that is Divine Providence, because I asked Him to teach me, and walk with me.
Thank you Bob, and David for all your amazing efforts and love of the Lord, to keep helping others, to understand Scripture, and to feel safe on this forum.
There was a time that I felt that scripture was too hard to understand, and also thought that perhaps the bible contradicted itself.
Everything has to be read in Context!
I am now loving Scripture, expecially because I receive such amazing responses and guidance.
Thank you so much

Hi Linda;

I feel many of us have come a long way since the early days of Christian online fellowship. Praise God for that.

My struggle years ago was growing up with face to face group Bible studies and hearing my Pastor's sermons while sitting in the pews. Others were "getting it" while I didn't understand the paraphrases, metaphors, symbolic meanings and context to spiritual teaching of God's Word.

I remember we did a series study on the Paulines. I really didn't like Paul. I felt he was a wise guy and was too hard in His 13 letters. Personal Attitude!

So I had many conversations with my Pastor and asked questions from his previous message. Back then we took notes during service.

One day he did encourage me that "I was on the right track" in breaking it all down in learning, seeking wisdom and knowledge instead of putting my Bible away for the week until the next study or sermon. He also encouraged me not to swallow everything in one feeding, so to speak. Slow, Spiritual Maturing.

In 2004 when I first participated in Christian forums on the internet, to me, was an adjustment. It was easy to post a greeting to each other with a "God bless you" but reading a poster's Scripture message or engaging in Biblical posts of almost any topic was challenging than "live conversation."

Through it all I feel God has grown me from both sides of fellowship and learning, it never ends. There is always something new around the corner and even more today with younger Christians in their 20s, 30s and 40s who are actually ministering to me.

Like you, I don't want to throw darts and arrows, rather go forward for the Kingdom. I praise God to have found a Christian site, Biblical Truth Forum, that offers an opportunity to read in a serene environment, dialogue, ask questions while getting to know and fellowship with like minded brothers and sisters.

God bless you, David, and thank you for your part in the fellowship, while maintaining the technical side of BTF.

(Oops. This may have been a post for another thread.)

Bob

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Could someone please show me the one scripture that definitely explains "Eternal Conscious Torment".

Not Eternal punishment, but more specifically "Eternal Conscious Torment"

 

[bobinfaith]

Could someone please show me the one scripture that definitely explains "Eternal Conscious Torment".

Not Eternal punishment, but more specifically "Eternal Conscious Torment"

Hello Walter;

I gave thought to "Eternal Conscious Torment" and this Word came to me.

Luke 16:19-31, 19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” - NKJV

Walter, the act of disobedience toward God will result in eternal punishment and last forever, while the act of obedience to God will result in eternal eternity, given to the righteous and will last forever.

Does this help?

I have a question for you, brother. You emphasize "Eternal Conscious Torment" more than once. I discern you already have a study knowledge of this concept.

God bless you and your entire family.

Bob

 

[Yesua888]

Some read The Bible to seek for truth, allowing scripture to speak for itself.

Some interpret scripture and explain a different meaning.


Allowing scripture to speak for itself:

Matthew 10:34
New International Version
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “’a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

When we read verse 35 and 36 doesn't it help us to understand verse 34 better?

In Matthew 10:34, when Jesus says He came not to bring peace but a sword, He is not referring to a literal weapon of war or violence (that is not what Jesus is about, and scripture should not be viewed in isolation). Instead, the "sword" symbolizes spiritual and social division caused by the proclamation of the gospel. This division arises because Jesus' message demands a choice—acceptance or rejection—leading to conflict even within families

In Matthew 10:34–36, Jesus said He had come at this time not to bring peace to the earth, but a sword, a weapon which divides and severs. As a result of His visit to the earth, some children would be set against parents and a man’s enemies might be those within his own household. This is because many who choose to follow Christ are hated by their family members. This may be part of the cost of discipleship, for love of family should not be greater than love for the Lord. A true disciple must take up his cross and follow Jesus (Matthew 16:24). He must be willing to face not only family hatred, but also death, like a criminal carrying his cross to his own execution. True followers of Christ must be willing to give up, even to the point of “hating” all that is in our lives, even our own families, if we are to be worthy of Him (Matthew 10:37–39). In so doing, we find our lives in return for having given them up to Jesus Christ.

 

[Yesua888]

Could someone please show me the one scripture that definitely explains "Eternal Conscious Torment".

Not Eternal punishment, but more specifically "Eternal Conscious Torment"

Matthew 25:46 is the verse most often cited as the primary biblical support for the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, with Jesus stating that the wicked will go away into eternal punishment, while the righteous will enter eternal life

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Other verses frequently referenced include Revelation 14:11, which describes the smoke of torment ascending forever and the lack of rest for the wicked, and Mark 9:48, which mentions unquenchable fire and worms that never die, though interpretations of these passages vary significantly.

However, imho, herein lies the danger of just taking these references as meaning the same thing ... everything should be viewed in it's own context.

As far as I know the Old Testament was written in Hewbrew and was later translated into English.
The New Testament was written in Greek ... same thing applied.

Some will argue that Scripture is God inspired, and some will argue that Scripture has been translated and therefore some words were used incorrectly ...

Imho, I am here to keep an open mind, to listen to what is asked and replied to, to do my own due dilligence (bible study), and pray for clarity.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 25:40
Berean Standard Bible
And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Luke 6:27
New King James Version
“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

So we believe differently, we still love God with all of our heart, and we love our neighbor as ourselves.
These are the two Greatest Commandments and this is what I focus on. Jesus did explain that the good news will cause division even in our own household, but he also gave us so many fine Instructions of how we should treat our brothers and sisters our neighbors and even our enemies.

Doesn't our neighbors and enemies believe a different way then we do?

 

[David]

Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 25:40
Berean Standard Bible
And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Luke 6:27
New King James Version
“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

So we believe differently, we still love God with all of our heart, and we love our neighbor as ourselves.
These are the two Greatest Commandments and this is what I focus on. Jesus did explain that the good news will cause division even in our own household, but he also gave us so many fine Instructions of how we should treat our brothers and sisters our neighbors and even our enemies.

Doesn't our neighbors and enemies believe a different way then we do?

Walter, no one here has said that we are to disobey the command to love God or love others. We all agree with that. But you are misusing those commands to justify false teaching, and Scripture does not permit that.

Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. Love for God is not determined by sincerity or focus but by obedience to His words. Love for neighbor does not mean agreeing with error or not speaking up when truth is being distorted. Scripture says, “Open rebuke is better than secret love” ~Proverbs 27:5, and “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” ~Proverbs 27:6.

Jesus Himself showed that love and truth are not contrary but joined. He spoke more about judgment and hell than any other, not because He was less loving but because He loved enough to speak the truth. Paul commands us to “speak the truth in love” ~Ephesians 4:15, not love apart from the truth. When doctrine is false, silence is not love.

Yes, people believe different things. That does not make all beliefs acceptable. Scripture says there are “false teachers among you” ~2 Peter 2: 1 and tells us to “earnestly contend for the faith” ~Jude 1:3. Love never requires us to soften, redefine, or contradict what God has plainly spoken.

 

[Walter Gabriel]

Eternal conscious torment has scriptural support with symbolic language.
Death, destruction, no life and eternal punishment has scriptural support with symbolic language.

 

[Yesua888]

Eternal conscious torment has scriptural support with symbolic language.
Death, destruction, no life and eternal punishment has scriptural support with symbolic language.

Walter, would you please quote the scripture that you are referring to, and explain a bit more of what you are saying or not saying?
Thanks LInda

 

[David]

Eternal conscious torment has scriptural support with symbolic language.
Death, destruction, no life and eternal punishment has scriptural support with symbolic language.

No. That framing is false. The Bible does not present two symbolic options. It presents one judgment described with clear language. Jesus says the wicked go into “everlasting punishment” while the righteous go into “life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. That is not symbolism competing with symbolism. That is definition. Same word. Same duration.

Scripture also explains what that punishment is. Hell is a place “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:48. The lost “have no rest day nor night” and “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever” ~Revelation 14:11. No rest and eternal torment do not describe nonexistence.

Words like death and destruction are biblical, but Scripture defines them as ruin and separation, not annihilation. Paul calls it “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9. Everlasting destruction cannot mean a momentary act that ends consciousness.

The Bible does not teach two outcomes and let us choose. It teaches one final judgment, conscious and eternal, exactly as Jesus warned.

 

[Yesua888]

I'm kinda of lost as to what the question is really about?
Is the question raised by Walter needing to be explained further, and if so, what is the whole transparent meaning behind the question (no cryptic words).
Sorry guys, I am battling to understand ...

 

[David]

I'm kinda of lost as to what the question is really about?
Is the question raised by Walter needing to be explained further, and if so, what is the whole transparent meaning behind the question (no cryptic words).
Sorry guys, I am battling to understand ...

Let me try to simplify what’s going on, because the discussion has gotten tangled. We are commanded to love God and others ~Matthew 22:37–40. No one is denying this or arguing against it. Loving our neighbor, blessing our enemies, and walking humbly with God are crystal clear biblical imperatives.

The issue that is actually being debated, and the real point of contention, is over what Scripture actually teaches about final judgment. It is not a question of love. It is not a question of tone. It is not a question of symbolism in general. The question is simply this: Does the Bible teach that the lost will be consigned to conscious and eternal punishment, or to extinction?

When Jesus addresses that question directly, He says the wicked will go “into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word is used to describe the duration of both. Scripture does not present two possible scenarios and leave it to us to pick our preferred one.

Jesus also says hell is a place where “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:48. Revelation states that the lost “have no rest day nor night” and that “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever” ~Revelation 14:11. Those are not descriptions of non-existence. They are descriptions of perpetual judgment.

Death and destruction are both biblical terms, but Scripture itself defines them as ruin and separation, not annihilation. Paul refers to it as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9. Everlasting destruction cannot be a moment that extinguishes consciousness.

The truth is straightforward. We are commanded to love, and we must obey that command. But love does not give us license to water down, re-define, or to contradict what Jesus clearly taught about judgment. If we love Him we keep His words ~John 14:15, even when they are difficult.

False teaching on hell is not a harmless opinion. It directly undermines the fear of the Lord. Scripture says, “By the fear of the LORD men depart from evil” ~Proverbs 16:6. If judgment is softened, delayed, or denied, repentance loses urgency. The gospel becomes advice instead of rescue.

It also calls God’s truthfulness into question. God warned Adam that sin brings death ~Genesis 2:17. Jesus warned repeatedly of eternal judgment. To redefine those warnings after the fact is to accuse God of exaggeration or deception. Scripture is clear that “God is not a man, that he should lie” ~Numbers 23:19.

Most importantly, denying eternal punishment cheapens the cross. If hell is temporary or non-conscious, then Christ did not bear the full weight of what Scripture says we deserve. Yet Jesus spoke of His death as a ransom, a substitution, and a cup of wrath He willingly drank ~Matthew 20:28, ~Isaiah 53:5, ~Luke 22:42. The severity of hell explains the necessity of the cross. Remove one and the other collapses.

 

[Yesua888]

Let me try to simplify what’s going on, because the discussion has gotten tangled. We are commanded to love God and others ~Matthew 22:37–40. No one is denying this or arguing against it. Loving our neighbor, blessing our enemies, and walking humbly with God are crystal clear biblical imperatives.

The issue that is actually being debated, and the real point of contention, is over what Scripture actually teaches about final judgment. It is not a question of love. It is not a question of tone. It is not a question of symbolism in general. The question is simply this: Does the Bible teach that the lost will be consigned to conscious and eternal punishment, or to extinction?

When Jesus addresses that question directly, He says the wicked will go “into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. The same word is used to describe the duration of both. Scripture does not present two possible scenarios and leave it to us to pick our preferred one.

Jesus also says hell is a place where “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:48. Revelation states that the lost “have no rest day nor night” and that “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever” ~Revelation 14:11. Those are not descriptions of non-existence. They are descriptions of perpetual judgment.

Death and destruction are both biblical terms, but Scripture itself defines them as ruin and separation, not annihilation. Paul refers to it as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” ~2 Thessalonians 1:9. Everlasting destruction cannot be a moment that extinguishes consciousness.

The truth is straightforward. We are commanded to love, and we must obey that command. But love does not give us license to water down, re-define, or to contradict what Jesus clearly taught about judgment. If we love Him we keep His words ~John 14:15, even when they are difficult.

False teaching on hell is not a harmless opinion. It directly undermines the fear of the Lord. Scripture says, “By the fear of the LORD men depart from evil” ~Proverbs 16:6. If judgment is softened, delayed, or denied, repentance loses urgency. The gospel becomes advice instead of rescue.

It also calls God’s truthfulness into question. God warned Adam that sin brings death ~Genesis 2:17. Jesus warned repeatedly of eternal judgment. To redefine those warnings after the fact is to accuse God of exaggeration or deception. Scripture is clear that “God is not a man, that he should lie” ~Numbers 23:19.

Most importantly, denying eternal punishment cheapens the cross. If hell is temporary or non-conscious, then Christ did not bear the full weight of what Scripture says we deserve. Yet Jesus spoke of His death as a ransom, a substitution, and a cup of wrath He willingly drank ~Matthew 20:28, ~Isaiah 53:5, ~Luke 22:42. The severity of hell explains the necessity of the cross. Remove one and the other collapses.

Hi David,
So sorry that you have to repeat yourself all the time, to teach us what we need to know. You are a very patient man : )

 

[David]

Hi David,
So sorry that you have to repeat yourself all the time, to teach us what we need to know. You are a very patient man : )

No need to apologize. Scripture itself repeats these truths because we all need to hear them again and again. God knows our frame. We forget. We drift. So He keeps pressing the same truth from different angles.

 

[Denise60]

You said you wish Scripture was simpler. You’re not alone in that thought. Sometimes we approach the Bible seeking a quick word from God and are faced instead with a well of truth so deep we need faith, patience, and the Spirit to clear it up. It can be frustrating, but that is the way He often operates. He’s not withholding truth from us; He’s refining us through the search. “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings” (Prov. 25:2). Growth comes through digging.

As for your questions…

1. Do people send themselves to hell, or does God send them?

Picture this, God designed the road, put up the signs, and sent His Son to stand in the middle of the highway waving His arms and shouting, “Don’t go that way!” But some of us still step on the gas. When they reach destruction, it is true that they have chosen to ignore the warning, but it is also God who hands out the judgment.

Romans 2:5 says the ungodly are “storing up wrath for themselves”, their own decisions fill that cup to the brim. But Romans 6:23 says “the wages of sin is death”, and wages are paid by the employer. In other words, people freely choose rebellion, but God, in His righteous role as Judge, pays out the penalty.

Hell is not a place people stumble into by accident. People hear the truth, reject the truth, and choose to live their lives apart from God. And since God is the source of all life, to turn away from Him is the same as choosing death. But don’t miss this, it is still God’s judgment which makes it final. In Matthew 10:28, Jesus says to “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” God alone has that power.

2. Are people already in hell according to Matt. 25:41–46?

No, this passage is not referring to now, but to later. The Son of Man comes “in His glory” at the beginning of verse 41. That is not the present tense, it is the day of judgment. The picture we see in verses 41–46 is a courtroom, not a holding cell. Christ is on the throne. The nations are gathered. The verdicts are read. The righteous enter eternal life; the wicked into eternal punishment.

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, that’s what verse 41 says. It was not prepared for people. But when people reject Christ they are choosing to be numbered among the devil’s followers and will reap his punishment. Revelation 20:15 is in perfect harmony with Matthew 25:41–46, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Hell, then, is a final place of punishment. But it is not a temporary one. It is for the unredeemed dead and that is why they are there, in John 3:18, in the “second death,” and there is no coming back. The rich man in Luke 16 was in torment but still waiting for that final verdict. Hell is not the “lake of fire” yet, for that is what it will become after Christ’s return and the Great White Throne Judgment.

The point is this: God does not want any person to go to hell. He made every provision through Jesus Christ to rescue us from hell. But if a person says to God, “I do not want You,” God will honor that choice eternally. Separation from God is hell, not because God is mean or vindictive, but because He is just.

So yes, the choice is real, but His mercy is also real. God is calling every person to take the exit off the highway of sin and step on to the narrow road that leads to life (Matthew 7:13–14). Jesus paid the price for that road with His blood. And if you are walking with Him, there is no place you will ever have to fear ending up.

You don’t have to live your life trying not to go to hell; you can live your life enjoying heaven right now by walking with Jesus Christ.

very true!!

 

[Yesua888]

Such an amazing response David ... thanks again

"1. Do people send themselves to hell, or does God send them?

Picture this, God designed the road, put up the signs, and sent His Son to stand in the middle of the highway waving His arms and shouting, “Don’t go that way!” But some of us still step on the gas. When they reach destruction, it is true that they have chosen to ignore the warning, but it is also God who hands out the judgment."

So well said!