If God is loving, why does He send people to hell?

[David]

This is one of the most common and emotionally charged questions skeptics ask. The truth is, the Bible teaches that God is both loving and just. His love does not cancel His justice, and His justice does not negate His love.

God doesn’t send people to hell against their will. People choose sin, reject His truth, and refuse the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:18–20 says:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”

God has made Himself known, and no one has an excuse. He is patient and merciful.

2 Peter 3:9 says:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Yet many people reject His offer of salvation. Jesus said in John 3:19–20:

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

The good news is that God has provided the way to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 explains the gospel:

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

Jesus said in John 14:6:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Hell is not about being “not good enough.” It’s the consequence of rejecting the only One who can save us. God’s love is shown in the fact that He sent His Son to die for us so we wouldn’t have to perish.

John 3:16 says:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

In short, hell exists because God is holy and must judge sin. But His love is shown in that He made a way out, at the highest cost to Himself. No one has to go to hell. But many will, because they reject Jesus Christ.

 

[bobinfaith]

I wish the Scriptures could make it simple less the challenge to study but that's not the way it works. So I have two questions.

1. I don't mean to get technical but according to Scripture, aren't the ones who chose to separate themselves from God upon death, sending themselves to hell, not He?

2. Are there those who separated from Christ already in hell, according to Matthew 25:41-46?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - NKJV

 

[Denise60]

God does not send anyone to hell we send ourselves to hell when we dont accept Jesus in our life its Gods will we all go to heaven

 

[David]

1. I don't mean to get technical but according to Scripture, aren't the ones who chose to separate themselves from God upon death, sending themselves to hell, not He?

2. Are there those who separated from Christ already in hell, according to Matthew 25:41-46?

You said you wish Scripture was simpler. You’re not alone in that thought. Sometimes we approach the Bible seeking a quick word from God and are faced instead with a well of truth so deep we need faith, patience, and the Spirit to clear it up. It can be frustrating, but that is the way He often operates. He’s not withholding truth from us; He’s refining us through the search. “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings” (Prov. 25:2). Growth comes through digging.

As for your questions…

1. Do people send themselves to hell, or does God send them?

Picture this, God designed the road, put up the signs, and sent His Son to stand in the middle of the highway waving His arms and shouting, “Don’t go that way!” But some of us still step on the gas. When they reach destruction, it is true that they have chosen to ignore the warning, but it is also God who hands out the judgment.

Romans 2:5 says the ungodly are “storing up wrath for themselves”, their own decisions fill that cup to the brim. But Romans 6:23 says “the wages of sin is death”, and wages are paid by the employer. In other words, people freely choose rebellion, but God, in His righteous role as Judge, pays out the penalty.

Hell is not a place people stumble into by accident. People hear the truth, reject the truth, and choose to live their lives apart from God. And since God is the source of all life, to turn away from Him is the same as choosing death. But don’t miss this, it is still God’s judgment which makes it final. In Matthew 10:28, Jesus says to “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” God alone has that power.

2. Are people already in hell according to Matt. 25:41–46?

No, this passage is not referring to now, but to later. The Son of Man comes “in His glory” at the beginning of verse 41. That is not the present tense, it is the day of judgment. The picture we see in verses 41–46 is a courtroom, not a holding cell. Christ is on the throne. The nations are gathered. The verdicts are read. The righteous enter eternal life; the wicked into eternal punishment.

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, that’s what verse 41 says. It was not prepared for people. But when people reject Christ they are choosing to be numbered among the devil’s followers and will reap his punishment. Revelation 20:15 is in perfect harmony with Matthew 25:41–46, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Hell, then, is a final place of punishment. But it is not a temporary one. It is for the unredeemed dead and that is why they are there, in John 3:18, in the “second death,” and there is no coming back. The rich man in Luke 16 was in torment but still waiting for that final verdict. Hell is not the “lake of fire” yet, for that is what it will become after Christ’s return and the Great White Throne Judgment.

The point is this: God does not want any person to go to hell. He made every provision through Jesus Christ to rescue us from hell. But if a person says to God, “I do not want You,” God will honor that choice eternally. Separation from God is hell, not because God is mean or vindictive, but because He is just.

So yes, the choice is real, but His mercy is also real. God is calling every person to take the exit off the highway of sin and step on to the narrow road that leads to life (Matthew 7:13–14). Jesus paid the price for that road with His blood. And if you are walking with Him, there is no place you will ever have to fear ending up.

You don’t have to live your life trying not to go to hell; you can live your life enjoying heaven right now by walking with Jesus Christ.

 

[Hobie]

Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked.

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 12:48​

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Romans 2:16​

On that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Acts 17:31​

Because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Hebrews 9:27​

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

1 Peter 4:17​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Revelation 20:12​

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.


The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

Genesis 3:19​

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20​

All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Job 10:9​

Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?

Job 34:15​

All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29​

When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Psalm 146:4​

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Its something we must study closely and grasp with fuller understanding.

 

[David]

The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

 

[David]

What the SDA Teaches That Is Not Biblical

For clarity to our members, some of the teachings promoted within Seventh day Adventism do not come from Scripture, and this is why they are not allowed to be taught here.

1. Soul Sleep
SDA doctrine teaches the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.
Scripture teaches the opposite.
“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8.
“Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43.
The body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God ~Ecclesiastes 12:7.

2. Investigative Judgment / Close of Probation
SDA doctrine claims Christ began a second phase of judgment in 1844 and that a global “probation closing” will happen before His return.
The Bible never teaches this.
“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.
The final separation happens when Christ returns ~Matthew 25:31-46.

3. Giving Prophetic Authority to Ellen G. White
SDA doctrine treats her visions as divinely authoritative.
Scripture forbids adding to God’s Word.
“Do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:6.
“Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

4. Binding the Sabbath as a Salvation Issue
The SDA system teaches Sabbath observance as an end-time requirement.
Scripture rejects this.
“Let no man judge you… regarding sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16.
Our rest is found in Christ Himself ~Hebrews 4:9-11.

These teachings come from the SDA system, not from Scripture.
Our forum stands on the Word of God alone, which is why these doctrines cannot be promoted here.

 

[Hobie]

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

 

[Denise60]

Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked.

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

John 12:48​

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Romans 2:16​

On that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Acts 17:31​

Because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Hebrews 9:27​

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

1 Peter 4:17​

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Revelation 20:12​

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.


The infusion of pagan Greek thought has left Christians with much confusion.

Genesis 3:19​

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20​

All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Job 10:9​

Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?

Job 34:15​

All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29​

When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Psalm 146:4​

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Its something we must study closely and grasp with fuller understanding.

noone sleeps in a grave the bible plainly says after death we go to heaven are hell

 

[David]

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

I’m not going by tradition or preconceived ideas. I’m going by exactly what Scripture says. You are the one bringing in preconceived ideas from SDA doctrine, because the Bible never teaches soul sleep. God says the body returns to dust but “the spirit returns to God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. Jesus said men can kill the body but “are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ~2 Corinthians 5:8. Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. None of that fits unconsciousness. The body sleeps, not the spirit. This isn’t tradition. This is the clear testimony of the Word.

 

[Yesua888]

This is one of the most common and emotionally charged questions skeptics ask. The truth is, the Bible teaches that God is both loving and just. His love does not cancel His justice, and His justice does not negate His love.

God doesn’t send people to hell against their will. People choose sin, reject His truth, and refuse the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:18–20 says:


God has made Himself known, and no one has an excuse. He is patient and merciful.

2 Peter 3:9 says:


Yet many people reject His offer of salvation. Jesus said in John 3:19–20:


The good news is that God has provided the way to be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 explains the gospel:


Jesus said in John 14:6:


Hell is not about being “not good enough.” It’s the consequence of rejecting the only One who can save us. God’s love is shown in the fact that He sent His Son to die for us so we wouldn’t have to perish.

John 3:16 says:


In short, hell exists because God is holy and must judge sin. But His love is shown in that He made a way out, at the highest cost to Himself. No one has to go to hell. But many will, because they reject Jesus Christ.

It is so simple ... so many of us miss the point in so many aspects of life on this Planet ... we have free choice, we have accountability (especially where it matters most : ) If we were more focussed on Our Creator, and His Will ... this planet would be even More Awesome. Luv God's Beauty, His Miracles, His Landscapes ... there is so much to Luv!
Most importantly, I Love and Trust Him!

 

[Yesua888]

God does not send anyone to hell we send ourselves to hell when we dont accept Jesus in our life its Gods will we all go to heaven

Yes, free will, freedom of choice ... Good or Bad ... we get to choose!

 

[Yesua888]

What the SDA Teaches That Is Not Biblical

For clarity to our members, some of the teachings promoted within Seventh day Adventism do not come from Scripture, and this is why they are not allowed to be taught here.

1. Soul Sleep
SDA doctrine teaches the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.
Scripture teaches the opposite.
“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8.
“Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43.
The body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God ~Ecclesiastes 12:7.

LUV this and was not aware that this was an SDA teaching ... 2 Cor 5:8 Music to my ears : )

2. Investigative Judgment / Close of Probation
SDA doctrine claims Christ began a second phase of judgment in 1844 and that a global “probation closing” will happen before His return.
The Bible never teaches this.
“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27.
The final separation happens when Christ returns ~Matthew 25:31-46.

I take it that 2 Cor 5:8 is referring to God's chosen ("believers") ... who will be with Him in Paradise?
To "once to die" therefore = no reincarnation?
To "die" is to "sleep" until Judgement Day, according to SDA?

"HOBIE"'s Post:

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This seems to clarify the above (Cor 5:8) ... those who died, not accepting Jesus, returned to dust, until Judgement Day?
GOSH and then there is this:
" Hobie said:
Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked."
I'm not sure what verse this is, but I take it then that when we (all of us) die, we turn to dust ... however, what about the verse that mentions that we will be with Him in Paradise? I'm a bit confused : )

Can ANYONE clear this up for me, thanks Linda : )

3. Giving Prophetic Authority to Ellen G. White
SDA doctrine treats her visions as divinely authoritative.
Scripture forbids adding to God’s Word.
“Do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:6.
“Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Yes! and did God appoint a representative on Earth, that we must bow down to (the pope)?

4. Binding the Sabbath as a Salvation Issue
The SDA system teaches Sabbath observance as an end-time requirement.
Scripture rejects this.
“Let no man judge you… regarding sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16.
Our rest is found in Christ Himself ~Hebrews 4:9-11.

Wow! this is a Good One, thank you ... have always felt conflicted by this teaching

These teachings come from the SDA system, not from Scripture.
Our forum stands on the Word of God alone, which is why these doctrines cannot be promoted here.

THANK YOU! Looking forward to more Profound Truths ... this is an amazing beginning for me on BTF : )

 

[bobinfaith]

It is so simple ... so many of us miss the point in so many aspects of life on this Planet ... we have free choice, we have accountability (especially where it matters most : ) If we were more focussed on Our Creator, and His Will ... this planet would be even More Awesome. Luv God's Beauty, His Miracles, His Landscapes ... there is so much to Luv!

Hello Yesua888;

Amen. It made me think of a couple Churches my wife and I attended years ago, but separate years.

There was so much teaching and preaching on LOVE but the internal strife were experiences we never encountered. This led to combativeness in the community!

After the second experience we gave our notice to the pastor that we were stepping down. A month later he resigned and went into a depression. Churches that divide leading to bitter confrontations goes beyond a sin, but a transgression.

I don't know how to articulate this; I felt perhaps in some twisted way God exposed this and led us to do a self check of ourselves going forward. Am I capable of taking years of growing up spiritually and one day throwing it all way because of a breakdown, in the Church body?!?

More to share....

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

I do not dispute the verses you quoted about standing before the judgment seat of Christ. It is clear in Scripture that all mankind will stand before Christ. My point is with the conclusion you are drawing that the dead are nothing more than unconscious dust until that day. The Bible never teaches this. You are not describing the teaching of Scripture, you are describing the Seventh day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep.

Okay, I hear you, and will continue reading ...

The passages that say man turns to dust are clearly talking about the body, not the spirit. Scripture is not confused on this point. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. The body dies, the spirit does not become dust or unconscious. Jesus said, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. The soul does not die with the body.

That is very clear, thank you : )

Scripture is completely consistent in teaching conscious existence after death. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He also expressed a desire “to depart and be with Christ” ~Philippians 1:23. That is not compatible with the idea of unconscious sleep. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. He did not say tomorrow after a period of unconsciousness. He also gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 through 31 and it is clear from this that both were fully conscious after death.

I gather that those who are with The Lord in Spirit, are Believers ...
Is there any clear scripture that tells us that those who die and do not believe in Christ, are not with Him "in Paradise"?

The dust passages are true, but they refer to the physical body. The whole person sleeping or becoming unconscious until judgment is not in Scripture. That is an SDA interpretation imposed on the verses. Let all Scripture speak, the picture of what happens at death is clear. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God, the righteous are with Christ, the unrighteous face conscious judgment and the resurrection reunites body and spirit.

I am trying to be kind in this, but firm. This forum is based on Scripture alone. The idea of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is an SDA doctrinal position that does not fit the entire testimony of the Word. Let’s stick with what God actually said.

My brother, its in Gods Word, we must look at what is there, not just go with tradition of man or his preconceived ideas and set aside what is written in scripture.

There are so many verses and interpretations ... no wonder I get confused : )
I always believed that "Man had tampered with God's Word", and did not trust the Bible 100% ... here to LEARN : )

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Yesua888;

Amen. It made me think of a couple Churches my wife and I attended years ago, but separate years.

There was so much teaching and preaching on LOVE but the internal strife were experiences we never encountered. This led to combativeness in the community!

After the second experience we gave our notice to the pastor that we were stepping down. A month later he resigned and went into a depression. Churches that divide leading to bitter confrontations goes beyond a sin, but a transgression.

I don't know how to articulate this; I felt perhaps in some twisted way God exposed this and led us to do a self check of ourselves going forward. Am I capable of taking years of growing up spiritually and one day throwing it all way because of a breakdown, in the Church body?!?

More to share....

bobinfaith

As kids we always looked at the Pastor as the perfect saint and he could never do wrong in our eyes. Our parents who probably knew the challenges in the Church didn't feel it appropriate to speak about to their children in our home.

In both Churches each Pastor committed acts that were kept as secret as possible. Each secret was eventually exposed and immediately caused a schism. It worsened leading to a bitter split. This was new territory for us. It took time. We searched for a new Church, found one and learned from the experience.

Time went by and many former members from both previous Churches didn't get past the splits. Some stop going to Church, Bible studies and abandoned their ministries. Others started partying to ease their lives after a busy week at work. When we ran into old friends they just didn't bring up Jesus but can discern they had chosen the wide road instead of the narrow road. In the eyes of the world the wide road can provide instant gratification whereas the narrow road can't.

I tried and continue to try understanding this. I believe when we receive Christ in our lives, many who strive to seek first His Kingdom overlook the parable of the sower, the farmer who plants the seeds. Some seed fall onto the path and are eaten by birds, or the seed that falls on rocky ground and has no root, the seed that falls among the thorns get choked and then the seed that fall on good soil.

I believe our God is loving, so loving that none of us can fathom His love. Everyone who is saved will not lose their salvation but our God who loves us will chastise, convict, FORGIVE, discipline, correct and build us back into the heart of worship and obedience. Because of His unconditional love.

It's so imperative that we fervently pray for all Believers. Our Christian walk is wonderful but it's not always easy, especially when we go into free fall from troubles, persecution and worries that cross our paths, when we have no control. Our faith gets filled with brain chatter and we begin to feel unworthy to receive the prize, instead shudder that we will end up in the lake of fire.

Through the years God has and is still growing my wife and me up in our spiritual maturity. It's hard sustaining the good soil with our hands (faith) by removing doubt, quick fix gratification, temptation and replacing it with our discipleship of prayer, study, and seeking God's strength and to let go of self while loving and serving others.

More to share....

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

Thanks for

I’m not going by tradition or preconceived ideas. I’m going by exactly what Scripture says. You are the one bringing in preconceived ideas from SDA doctrine, because the Bible never teaches soul sleep. God says the body returns to dust but “the spirit returns to God who gave it” ~Ecclesiastes 12:7. Jesus said men can kill the body but “are not able to kill the soul” ~Matthew 10:28. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ~2 Corinthians 5:8. Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” ~Luke 23:43. None of that fits unconsciousness. The body sleeps, not the spirit. This isn’t tradition. This is the clear testimony of the Word.

clearing that up David, I've been getting pretty confused!

As kids we always looked at the Pastor as the perfect saint and he could never do wrong in our eyes. Our parents who probably knew the challenges in the Church didn't feel it appropriate to speak about to their children in our home.

In both Churches each Pastor committed acts that were kept as secret as possible. Each secret was eventually exposed and immediately caused a schism. It worsened leading to a bitter split. This was new territory for us. It took time. We searched for a new Church, found one and learned from the experience.

Time went by and many former members from both previous Churches didn't get past the splits. Some stop going to Church, Bible studies and abandoned their ministries. Others started partying to ease their lives after a busy week at work. When we ran into old friends they just didn't bring up Jesus but can discern they had chosen the wide road instead of the narrow road. In the eyes of the world the wide road can provide instant gratification whereas the narrow road can't.

I tried and continue to try understanding this. I believe when we receive Christ in our lives, many who strive to seek first His Kingdom overlook the parable of the sower, the farmer who plants the seeds. Some seed fall onto the path and are eaten by birds, or the seed that falls on rocky ground and has no root, the seed that falls among the thorns get choked and then the seed that fall on good soil.

I believe our God is loving, so loving that none of us can fathom His love. Everyone who is saved will not lose their salvation but our God who loves us will chastise, convict, FORGIVE, discipline, correct and build us back into the heart of worship and obedience. Because of His unconditional love.

It's so imperative that we fervently pray for all Believers. Our Christian walk is wonderful but it's not always easy, especially when we go into free fall from troubles, persecution and worries that cross our paths, when we have no control. Our faith gets filled with brain chatter and we begin to feel unworthy to receive the prize, instead shudder that we will end up in the lake of fire.

Through the years God has and is still growing my wife and me up in our spiritual maturity. It's hard sustaining the good soil with our hands (faith) by removing doubt, quick fix gratification, temptation and replacing it with our discipleship of prayer, study, and seeking God's strength and to let go of self while loving and serving others.

More to share....

bobinfaith

Thank you for sharing Bob : ) speak again on the morrow ...

 

[David]

I take it that 2 Cor 5:8 is referring to God's chosen ("believers") ... who will be with Him in Paradise?
To "once to die" therefore = no reincarnation?
To "die" is to "sleep" until Judgement Day, according to SDA?

"HOBIE"'s Post:

Isaiah 26:19​

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This seems to clarify the above (Cor 5:8) ... those who died, not accepting Jesus, returned to dust, until Judgement Day?
GOSH and then there is this:
" Hobie said:
Gods Word is clear that we will be judged, and that the dead are lying in their graves turned to dust awaiting the judgement, both of the saints and of the wicked."
I'm not sure what verse this is, but I take it then that when we (all of us) die, we turn to dust ... however, what about the verse that mentions that we will be with Him in Paradise? I'm a bit confused : )

Can ANYONE clear this up for me, thanks Linda : )

Scripture makes all this very clear when you allow every verse to simply say what it says.

First, the Bible does not teach that the soul falls unconscious at death. This idea is SDA doctrine, not Scripture. Paul said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ~2 Corinthians 5:8. He was not referring to some future resurrection moment. He was talking about the believer’s immediate state after physical death. The Greek word for “present” is endēmeō, which means to be at home. Paul longed to depart and be with Christ because it was “far better” ~Philippians 1:23. You cannot call it “far better” if he meant lying in the dust until judgment.

Second, Hebrews 9:27 settles the reincarnation question. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” One life, one death, then judgment. No cycles, no return trips.

Third, when Scripture speaks of the word “sleep” it is describing the body, not the soul. The body sleeps because it will be raised. Jesus made that distinction clear when He said, “Lazarus is asleep,” but then said plainly, “Lazarus is dead” ~John 11:11-14. The soul did not sleep. The body had died. The resurrection wakes the body, not the soul.

Fourth, Isaiah 26:19 and Daniel 12:2 describe the future bodily resurrection when God raises every person, believer and unbeliever, for judgment. This does not contradict 2 Corinthians 5:8. It completes it. Believers go to be with the Lord immediately in spirit, then their bodies are raised and glorified at Christ’s return. Unbelievers go immediately to torment, then their bodies are raised for final judgment at the great white throne ~Luke 16:22-23 ~Revelation 20:11-15.

So what about “dust”? Scripture says the body returns to dust ~Genesis 3:19. That is true for all of us. But the soul does not turn into dust. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise” ~Luke 23:43. Not someday. Not after ages of sleep. Today. The body was buried. The soul went to Christ.

The confusion comes when people mix verses about the body with verses about the soul and when they let a denomination redefine words Scripture already explained. If you keep it simple, the Bible is perfectly clear.

When a believer dies, the body goes to the grave, the soul goes immediately to be with the Lord. When an unbeliever dies, the body goes to the grave, the soul goes to torment. At the resurrection, God raises all the bodies, reunites them with the soul, and judges according to His Word.

That is the consistent testimony of Scripture from beginning to end.

 

[David]

Yes! and did God appoint a representative on Earth, that we must bow down to (the pope)?

No. God never appointed any human on earth that we must bow down to. Scripture does not give that place to the pope, to a prophet, or to any religious leader. God says He alone is Lord. “You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve” ~Matthew 4:10.

Jesus is the only Head of the church ~Colossians 1:18. The Holy Spirit is the only Teacher who leads believers into truth ~John 16:13. The Word of God is the only authority God gave to guide our faith ~2 Timothy 3:16.

Any system that demands you bow to a man or treat a person’s words as equal to Scripture is adding to what God said, and God warns against that ~Proverbs 30:6. Whether it is the pope in Catholicism or Ellen G. White in SDA, both go beyond the Word.

God did not give the church a human representative we must bow to. He gave us His Son, His Spirit, and His Word. That is enough, and that is where our obedience belongs.

 

[David]

I gather that those who are with The Lord in Spirit, are Believers ...
Is there any clear scripture that tells us that those who die and do not believe in Christ, are not with Him "in Paradise"?

Yes. The Scripture is very clear that unbelievers are not with the Lord when they die. Jesus Himself made that distinction.

In Luke 16:22 through 23 Jesus says the believer (Lazarus) was comforted, but the unbeliever was in torment immediately after death. They were in two different places, separated by a great gulf that no one can cross.

Jesus also said, “If you die in your sins, where I go you cannot come” ~John 8:21. That is as clear as it gets. Those who reject Him cannot be with Him in Paradise.

Revelation 20:11 through 15 shows the final judgment. Those whose names are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. There is no verse anywhere that says unbelievers spend even a moment in Paradise.

So yes. Believers go to Christ. Unbelievers do not. Jesus settled that. The Word is consistent from beginning to end.