It's Just the Truth

[David]

False teachers are God's judgments on people who don't want God, but in the name of religion plan on getting everything their carnal heart desires. That's why a Joel Osteen is raised up. Those people who sit under him are not victims of him.

He is the judgment of God upon them because they want exactly what he wants and it's not God. And you can line them all up along with him. That's where it is.

For ourselves, teachers in accordance to their own desires. So you can have any hen in there who all he wants to do is tell you you're going to have a Mercedes Benz. Those people aren't victims.

He is God's judgment upon them. They want what he wants and so they accumulate him to themselves along with all those other teachers because they teach exactly what they want. Do you see that? You boast in the fact that God has children running around all over this country full of carnality, steeped in sin, doing whatever they want and God does nothing according to your preaching.

But they're safe, bless God. When you preach their funeral, you'll preach them straight into heaven. I've seen it a thousand times.

I remember just a while back a man in my own town in Illinois who was a known drug addict, drug dealer, fornicator, absolutely everything. And he is there. He passes away.

And the pastor of one of the largest Baptist churches in the area is standing there at the funeral. That place is loaded with every person that's hardly ever been in church. Drug addicts and everything you can imagine are all there in church to honor their dead friend.

And that pastor gets up and he says, I praise God, I know this young man, he's sowed a lot of wild oats, but when he was nine years old, I was there when he prayed to receive Jesus Christ as his Savior. And he's in heaven today. And all those lost sinners went straight out into the streets justified in their sin because of conservative evangelical Baptist preaching.

That's typical in almost every church in this country. It's true. It's true.

You say, oh, that's mean-spirited. Let me ask you a question. My mother passed away last year.

And I remember three years ago, I went to the doctor's office with her because she thought something's not right. And that doctor, very gentle, very noble, he looked at my mother and he says, Miss Washer, he goes, you've got cancer. And he goes, he hurt my mom.

He ruined her day. We were going to go out to get something to eat. He ruined her week.

He tore my mother to pieces. But he tried to save my mother's life. And if he hadn't done that, if he hadn't been so truthful, she'd have had no hope of salvation whatsoever.

We'd have had no recourse at all. And he could have been kicked out of his own practice for being immoral. They ought to kick most pastors out of their practice.

Because out of cowardice or self-preservation, they will not preach the gospel. That's all there is to it. This job's not for cowards.

It may be for wild men and fools, but it's not for cowards. I'm telling you, there's too much at stake. Too much at stake.

And it'd be different if it was happening in churches that denied the deity of Christ or substitutionary atonement. But this stuff goes on every day in men's churches who hold to these truths. But when they get to the gospel, they just seem to lose their minds.

This country's not gospel-hardened. This country's gospel-ignorant. Because most of the preachers are gospel-ignorant.

It's just the truth. That salvation is not merely the change of practice. It doesn't even begin there.

It's not turning over a new leaf. It's not New Year's resolutions. It's not this strong conviction to want to be a different person.

None of that. Salvation is a supernatural work of God whereby someone really does become a new creature. Really.

That's not poetry. It's not poetry. It's not poetry.

By Paul Washer

 

[william77]

False teachers are God's judgments on people who don't want God, but in the name of religion plan on getting everything their carnal heart desires. That's why a Joel Osteen is raised up. Those people who sit under him are not victims of him.

He is the judgment of God upon them because they want exactly what he wants and it's not God. And you can line them all up along with him. That's where it is.

I think you’re correct on this point.

And that pastor gets up and he says, I praise God, I know this young man, he's sowed a lot of wild oats, but when he was nine years old, I was there when he prayed to receive Jesus Christ as his Savior. And he's in heaven today. And all those lost sinners went straight out into the streets justified in their sin because of conservative evangelical Baptist preaching.

That's typical in almost every church in this country. It's true. It's true.

Again you’re correct. Mainstream Christianity does it every time.

This country's not gospel-hardened. This country's gospel-ignorant. Because most of the preachers are gospel-ignorant.

Exactly true!

It's just the truth. That salvation is not merely the change of practice. It doesn't even begin there.

I think you might have this part wrong. Salvation comes from repenting and then putting God’s Law into practice along with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit comes and helps you to understand the Law and the gospel. The book of Revelation makes it clear this is an important part of going through the “great tribulation” successfully. Revelation 7:9-17; 12:17; 14:12; 22:14.

Revelation 7:9-17
New King James Version
A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, [a]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 12:17
New King James Version
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [a]Christ.

Revelation 14:12
New King James Version
12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
New King James Version
14 Blessed are those who [a]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Yesua888]

Divine Judgment as Consequence:
The idea that they are "the judgment of God upon them" implies that God allows them to be led astray by a false teacher as a consequence of their rejection of the "whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27). By preferring a message that suits their "own passions" over sound doctrine, they are experiencing a form of judgment (2 Timothy 4:3-4) is a biblical passage where the Apostle Paul warns that a time will come when people reject sound doctrine and instead accumulate teachers who cater to their "itching ears" and personal desires. In this era, believers will turn away from the truth and wander into myths or fables, preferring messages that please them over those that provide spiritual health.

 

[David]

I think you might have this part wrong. Salvation comes from repenting and then putting God’s Law into practice along with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit comes and helps you to understand the Law and the gospel. The book of Revelation makes it clear this is an important part of going through the “great tribulation” successfully. Revelation 7:9-17; 12:17; 14:12; 22:14.

You’re putting obedience at the front door, like it’s part of what gets someone saved. But the Bible puts it after the door, as the result of being saved.

Obedience matters. No question about it. But we have to keep it where Scripture puts it. We don’t obey to become born again. We obey because we have been born again.

Jesus made that plain. “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. Notice the order. Love for Him comes first. Obedience flows out of that love. It’s not a payment to earn salvation. It’s the natural response of a heart that has been changed.

When someone is truly born again, something inside them is different. They don’t just try to obey out of fear or obligation. They want to obey because they love the One who saved them. “We love him, because he first loved us” ~1 John 4:19. His love comes first. Our response follows.

Salvation isn't earned by repenting and then putting God's Law into practice. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not by our efforts at obedience. ~Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." It doesn't begin with changed practice or Law-keeping. It begins with trusting in what Christ has already done.

The multitude in Revelation 7:14 are saved because they "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb," not because they kept the Law well enough. The ones in Revelation 12:17, 14:12, and 22:14 who keep the commandments of God do so as those who already have the testimony/faith of Jesus. Their obedience is the fruit of being saved, not the root of it. Mixing Law practice into how we get saved turns the gospel into something else.

Repentance is real, but it's a turning to Christ in faith, not a system of Law-keeping to earn salvation. The Holy Spirit does lead us into truth and obedience after we're saved, but He doesn't make Law-keeping part of the saving itself.

 

[william77]

Jesus made that plain. “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. Notice the order. Love for Him comes first. Obedience flows out of that love. It’s not a payment to earn salvation. It’s the natural response of a heart that has been changed.

I think you’re reading something more into Jesus’ statement than is warranted. It has always been about love for God by keeping His commandments. Deuteronomy 6:1-5. This is the greatest commandment in the Law as Jesus taught it in Matthew 22:34-40.

Deuteronomy 6:1-5
New King James Version
The Greatest Commandment

6 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and [a]be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Matthew 22:34-40
New King James Version
The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Salvation isn't earned by repenting and then putting God's Law into practice. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not by our efforts at obedience. ~Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." It doesn't begin with changed practice or Law-keeping. It begins with trusting in what Christ has already done.

But that’s not what Jesus and James said in Matthew 19:16-18; James 1:25; 2:14-26.

Matthew 19:16-18
New King James Version
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? [c]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’

James 1:25
New King James Version
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:14-26
New King James Version
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

but He doesn't make Law-keeping part of the saving itself.

I’m getting a bad feeling you don’t believe in the importance of keeping God’s Law. Possibly you’re one of those who believe Paul taught that the Law was abolished.

 

[David]

I think you’re reading something more into Jesus’ statement than is warranted.

I’m not reading something more into what Jesus said. I’m reading the Bible with the Bible.

Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” ~John 14:15. That is the order He gave. Love comes first, obedience follows. That does not weaken obedience. It puts obedience in its proper place.

And the rest of Scripture says the same thing. We are saved “by grace… through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9, and then we are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:10. Not by good works, but unto good works.

So no, I’m not reading something more into Jesus’ words. I’m refusing to read works into the cause of salvation when Scripture places them as the fruit of salvation.

 

[David]

Deuteronomy 6:1-5
New King James Version
The Greatest Commandment

6 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and [a]be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Matthew 22:34-40
New King James Version
The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Those verses are true, but you’re applying them the wrong way.

~Deuteronomy 6:5 and ~Matthew 22:37 are commands. They tell you to love God perfectly. They do not tell you how to be saved. They show what God requires. And if that’s your standard, you’ve already failed it. Scripture says, “There is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10.

So what are you really saying? You’re saying loving God by keeping His commandments is part of what saves you. That sounds right on the surface, but it’s not what Scripture teaches. The Law doesn’t save. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. It exposes you. It doesn’t fix you.

Jesus wasn’t giving a salvation formula in ~Matthew 22. He was stating the standard of God’s righteousness. And that standard condemns every one of us, because none of us has loved God perfectly.

Here’s the truth you’re missing. Salvation is not “love God enough and be saved.” Scripture says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” ~Acts 16:31, and “not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

Then after that, God changes the heart. “We love him, because he first loved us” ~1 John 4:19. Love and obedience come after, not before.

So the issue is simple. You’re taking commands that show what a perfect life looks like and turning them into the way to be saved. That’s not the gospel. That’s putting trust in your ability to meet a standard you’ve already broken.

What you are pushing is a works-based mixture, and Scripture already condemns that. And that line matters.

 

[David]

But that’s not what Jesus and James said in Matthew 19:16-18; James 1:25; 2:14-26.

Listen to this one from Scripture itself. You are Not trusting in Christ alone you are obstructing the gospel. You're not just missing it, you're standing in the way of the true gospel, peddling a deadly mix of law and grace that Scripture calls another gospel. Jesus did not give this rich young ruler a list of things to do so that He might have eternal life. He sliced that man open with the sword of the gospel: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Jesus revealed this man could NOT GET INTO LIFE by keeping the law because he trusted in his OWN righteousness. He walked away sad. ~Matthew 19:17-22 (KJV). You see, the law exposes and kills our pride. It doesn’t save by being kept.

James 2 is not your passage for works salvation. James says if your faith has no works it is dead. Dead like a corpse. James is making the point that true faith produces evidence. When Abraham believed God in Genesis 15(Genesis 15: 6), even before Isaac was ever brought to the altar God said Abraham “because he believed God, it was counted unto him for righteousness.” James BOOM! Quotes THAT very verse for emphasis! Faith produces works because it IS faithful, alive faith. Not a list of works you did to buy your way in!

Paul drives the door nail through with Romans 4: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God... But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” ~Romans 4:2,5 (KJV). You plug law keeping into salvation like its gonna make faith whole again. That’s GALATIANS!! Paul didn’t whisper here. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Twice. Let. Him. Be. Accursed. ~Galatians 1: 8-9 (KJV) Salvation comes by grace THROUGH faith. Period. Not of works lest any man should boast. ~ Ephesians 2: 8-9 ANYTHING ELSE is cursed Gospel of DEATH! !

This is not some Bible study debate. This is the Bible pounding your heart in alarm. Stop telling people “do this” and “live.” REPENT AND BELIEVE ON CHRIST ALONE His precious blood, His substitutionary death on the cross, His once finished work or you too will stand before God on Judgment Day with all your good deeds in your hand only to hear Jesus say the most terrifying words to hear; ” Depart from me, I never knew you.” SCRIPTURE HAS SAID IT!” Let EVERY MAN NOW GIVE ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF UNTO GOD.” Repent, trust Christ alone today. Choose who you will serve.

True good works in a believer flow only from knowing and loving the Savior Jesus Christ, not to earn His favor but because we love Him who first loved us. ~John 14:15 (KJV): “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” ~2 Corinthians 5:14: “For the love of Christ constraineth us.” Anything else is self-righteous striving, not the fruit of grace.

 

[David]

I’m getting a bad feeling you don’t believe in the importance of keeping God’s Law. Possibly you’re one of those who believe Paul taught that the Law was abolished.

That’s not what I said, and that’s not what Scripture teaches.

I never said God’s Law isn’t important. Scripture says it is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. The issue is not the value of the Law. The issue is its role.

The Law was never given to save you. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. It shows sin. It cannot remove it.

And no, Paul did not teach the Law was abolished. Jesus said, “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” ~Matthew 5:17. He fulfilled it perfectly, which none of us ever could.

So here’s the truth. The Law is not the way to salvation, but it still matters. Why? Because when someone is truly saved, God changes their heart. “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts” ~Hebrews 8:10.

That’s the difference you’re missing.

 

[william77]

That’s not what I said, and that’s not what Scripture teaches.

I never said God’s Law isn’t important. Scripture says it is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. The issue is not the value of the Law. The issue is its role.

The Law was never given to save you. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. It shows sin. It cannot remove it.

And no, Paul did not teach the Law was abolished. Jesus said, “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” ~Matthew 5:17. He fulfilled it perfectly, which none of us ever could.

So here’s the truth. The Law is not the way to salvation, but it still matters. Why? Because when someone is truly saved, God changes their heart. “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts” ~Hebrews 8:10.

That’s the difference you’re missing.

I was right. You and the others are anti God’s Law. This is not what Jesus and Paul taught. God the Father gave us Jesus to show us how to keep the Law. Paul had no special authority to give another doctrine beyond what Jesus taught.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies about His coming, but did not fulfill the Law in the sense that it’s now abolished. You must pay close attention to verse 19 where Jesus says we are obligated to practice the Law and teach the Law to others.

Matthew 5:17-19
New King James Version
Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [a]jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[william77]

Depart from me, I never knew you.” SCRIPTURE HAS SAID IT!”

You totally misinterpret this Scripture. Jesus is telling you that He will reject those in the mainstream churches that teach against God Law. He rejects the lawless.

Matthew 7:21-23
New King James Version
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[bobinfaith]

False teachers are God's judgments on people who don't want God, but in the name of religion plan on getting everything their carnal heart desires. That's why a Joel Osteen is raised up. Those people who sit under him are not victims of him.

He is the judgment of God upon them because they want exactly what he wants and it's not God. And you can line them all up along with him. That's where it is.

For ourselves, teachers in accordance to their own desires. So you can have any hen in there who all he wants to do is tell you you're going to have a Mercedes Benz. Those people aren't victims.

He is God's judgment upon them. They want what he wants and so they accumulate him to themselves along with all those other teachers because they teach exactly what they want. Do you see that? You boast in the fact that God has children running around all over this country full of carnality, steeped in sin, doing whatever they want and God does nothing according to your preaching.

But they're safe, bless God. When you preach their funeral, you'll preach them straight into heaven. I've seen it a thousand times.

I remember just a while back a man in my own town in Illinois who was a known drug addict, drug dealer, fornicator, absolutely everything. And he is there. He passes away.

And the pastor of one of the largest Baptist churches in the area is standing there at the funeral. That place is loaded with every person that's hardly ever been in church. Drug addicts and everything you can imagine are all there in church to honor their dead friend.

And that pastor gets up and he says, I praise God, I know this young man, he's sowed a lot of wild oats, but when he was nine years old, I was there when he prayed to receive Jesus Christ as his Savior. And he's in heaven today. And all those lost sinners went straight out into the streets justified in their sin because of conservative evangelical Baptist preaching.

That's typical in almost every church in this country. It's true. It's true.

You say, oh, that's mean-spirited. Let me ask you a question. My mother passed away last year.

And I remember three years ago, I went to the doctor's office with her because she thought something's not right. And that doctor, very gentle, very noble, he looked at my mother and he says, Miss Washer, he goes, you've got cancer. And he goes, he hurt my mom.

He ruined her day. We were going to go out to get something to eat. He ruined her week.

He tore my mother to pieces. But he tried to save my mother's life. And if he hadn't done that, if he hadn't been so truthful, she'd have had no hope of salvation whatsoever.

We'd have had no recourse at all. And he could have been kicked out of his own practice for being immoral. They ought to kick most pastors out of their practice.

Because out of cowardice or self-preservation, they will not preach the gospel. That's all there is to it. This job's not for cowards.

It may be for wild men and fools, but it's not for cowards. I'm telling you, there's too much at stake. Too much at stake.

And it'd be different if it was happening in churches that denied the deity of Christ or substitutionary atonement. But this stuff goes on every day in men's churches who hold to these truths. But when they get to the gospel, they just seem to lose their minds.

This country's not gospel-hardened. This country's gospel-ignorant. Because most of the preachers are gospel-ignorant.

It's just the truth. That salvation is not merely the change of practice. It doesn't even begin there.

It's not turning over a new leaf. It's not New Year's resolutions. It's not this strong conviction to want to be a different person.

None of that. Salvation is a supernatural work of God whereby someone really does become a new creature. Really.

That's not poetry. It's not poetry. It's not poetry.

By Paul Washer

Hello David;

Thank you for sharing this outline, It's Just the Truth. Please clarify if I read the author's name incorrectly, wasn't this written by Minister Paul Washer or was it your own testimony?

If Paul and I were sitting over a cup of coffee I would engage in what he is unloading. His testimony does not require preaching to the choir (because he still has to go out and sing.) Instead, he is seeking listening ears which brings a passage to mind.

In an example of a Paul to Timothy teaching, Paul was heartbroken over the lost and suffering over the misleading disposition of the ungodly.

Timothy was listening and grasped what Paul was sharing instead of reacting with darts and arrows. Timothy would later face his own challenges with the seasoned elders.

In 2 Timothy 2:8-26, 8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - ESV

Paul Washer ends with this quote: Salvation is a supernatural work of God whereby someone really does become a new creature. Really. That's not poetry. It's not poetry. It's not poetry.

I agree with the brother.

God bless you, David.

Bob

 

[David]

wasn't this written by Minister Paul Washer or was it your own testimony?

Yes, it was, that is why I put By Paul Washer at the end of it. But I liked the article and agree with it, that is why I posted it.

 

[David]

I was right. You and the others are anti God’s Law. This is not what Jesus and Paul taught. God the Father gave us Jesus to show us how to keep the Law. Paul had no special authority to give another doctrine beyond what Jesus taught.

You’ve crossed the line from misunderstanding into flat-out distortion, and it needs to be said plainly.

You keep shouting “Law” like it saves you, while ignoring the very Scriptures that shut that idea down. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. That is not unclear. That is not complicated. That destroys your entire argument.

And now you’re accusing others of being “anti-God’s Law”? No. The Law is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. The problem isn’t the Law. The problem is you trying to use it as a ladder to climb into salvation when God says it was never given for that purpose.

You quote Matthew 5, but you don’t keep reading. Jesus didn’t lower the standard, He raised it beyond your reach. “Whosoever is angry with his brother… shall be in danger of the judgment” ~Matthew 5:22. “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust… hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” ~Matthew 5:28. If you want to stand on the Law, then stand on that standard. Perfect obedience in thought, word, and deed. Have you done that? No. Scripture already said, “There is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10.

You say Jesus showed us how to keep the Law. No. He showed you you can’t. That’s the point you keep refusing to face. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20.

And your claim that Paul had no authority? That’s not just wrong, it’s dangerous. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. And Peter puts Paul’s writings right alongside the rest of Scripture ~2 Peter 3:16. You don’t get to dismiss what God has already affirmed.

Here’s the truth you keep dodging: “If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. That’s where your teaching leads. Straight there. You are functionally saying the cross isn’t enough.

And God answers that clearly: “Christ is become of no effect unto you… ye are fallen from grace” ~Galatians 5:4. You don’t mix Law and grace for salvation. The moment you do, you’ve stepped away from the gospel.

You want Matthew 5:19? Then hear the full weight of it. Break one point, you’re guilty of all ~James 2:10. That Law you’re clinging to condemns you. It does not save you.

This isn’t a debate anymore. This has been answered from Scripture, clearly and repeatedly. You’re not correcting error at this point, you’re repeating it.

The gospel is settled: “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

That stands. Your additions don’t.

This is where it stops.

 

[Yesua888]

I think you’re reading something more into Jesus’ statement than is warranted. It has always been about love for God by keeping His commandments. Deuteronomy 6:1-5. This is the greatest commandment in the Law as Jesus taught it in Matthew 22:34-40.

Deuteronomy 6:1-5
New King James Version
The Greatest Commandment

6 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and [a]be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Matthew 22:34-40
New King James Version
The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


But that’s not what Jesus and James said in Matthew 19:16-18; James 1:25; 2:14-26.

Matthew 19:16-18
New King James Version
Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[a] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? [c]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’

James 1:25
New King James Version
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:14-26
New King James Version
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


I’m getting a bad feeling you don’t believe in the importance of keeping God’s Law. Possibly you’re one of those who believe Paul taught that the Law was abolished.

Very good verses to back up your "argument"

 

[Yesua888]

You’ve crossed the line from misunderstanding into flat-out distortion, and it needs to be said plainly.

You keep shouting “Law” like it saves you, while ignoring the very Scriptures that shut that idea down. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. That is not unclear. That is not complicated. That destroys your entire argument.

And now you’re accusing others of being “anti-God’s Law”? No. The Law is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. The problem isn’t the Law. The problem is you trying to use it as a ladder to climb into salvation when God says it was never given for that purpose.

You quote Matthew 5, but you don’t keep reading. Jesus didn’t lower the standard, He raised it beyond your reach. “Whosoever is angry with his brother… shall be in danger of the judgment” ~Matthew 5:22. “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust… hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” ~Matthew 5:28. If you want to stand on the Law, then stand on that standard. Perfect obedience in thought, word, and deed. Have you done that? No. Scripture already said, “There is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10.

You say Jesus showed us how to keep the Law. No. He showed you you can’t. That’s the point you keep refusing to face. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20.

And your claim that Paul had no authority? That’s not just wrong, it’s dangerous. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. And Peter puts Paul’s writings right alongside the rest of Scripture ~2 Peter 3:16. You don’t get to dismiss what God has already affirmed.

Here’s the truth you keep dodging: “If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. That’s where your teaching leads. Straight there. You are functionally saying the cross isn’t enough.

And God answers that clearly: “Christ is become of no effect unto you… ye are fallen from grace” ~Galatians 5:4. You don’t mix Law and grace for salvation. The moment you do, you’ve stepped away from the gospel.

You want Matthew 5:19? Then hear the full weight of it. Break one point, you’re guilty of all ~James 2:10. That Law you’re clinging to condemns you. It does not save you.

This isn’t a debate anymore. This has been answered from Scripture, clearly and repeatedly. You’re not correcting error at this point, you’re repeating it.

The gospel is settled: “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

That stands. Your additions don’t.

This is where it stops.

David, you and William 77 quote some really good Scripture ... perhaps someone should put them all together, and then go back to the "argument", to see what stacks up the most. Perhaps some of it is out of context? I am not sure on any of this, apart from hearing the last good "arguments" ("Scriptual backing"?)

 

[David]

Very good verses to back up your "argument"

Yesua888, you’ve got to see what’s really happening here. Those verses william77 brought up don’t support his point. When you read them in full, they actually tear it down.

When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to the idol he wouldn’t surrender. The man walked away sorrowful ~Matthew 19:22. Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping.

Now bring in Abraham. Scripture already settled this. “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” ~Genesis 15:6. That was before Isaac was ever laid on the altar. James doesn’t contradict that. He shows the evidence. When Abraham offered Isaac, it proved the faith he already had ~James 2:21-23. Paul locks it down: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God” ~Romans 4:2.

So Paul and James are not fighting each other. They’re standing shoulder to shoulder. One shows the root, the other shows the fruit. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” ~Romans 3:20. “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. Real faith produces works, but works never produce salvation. Only Christ saves.

Don’t misunderstand the Law. It’s not the enemy. “The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. But it was never given to justify you. It was given to expose you, to bring you face to face with your need. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24.

So this isn’t rejecting the Law. This is understanding its purpose. The moment you try to add Law-keeping as a condition for salvation, you’ve stepped out of grace. “Christ is become of no effect unto you… ye are fallen from grace” ~Galatians 5:4.

Here’s the line you don’t cross. Salvation is not Christ plus your effort. It is Christ alone. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[David]

David, you and William 77 quote some really good Scripture ... perhaps someone should put them all together, and then go back to the "argument", to see what stacks up the most. Perhaps some of it is out of context? I am not sure on any of this, apart from hearing the last good "arguments" ("Scriptual backing"?)

Yesua888,

My replies are in context. If you see anything I have posted that is not in context, please let me know, showing me where.

We don’t need to stack verses like we’re building a case. God’s Word is not confused. It already stands in perfect agreement when you let it speak for itself.

What’s happening here is simple. Verses about the Law are being used to make obedience part of what saves you. That’s where the line gets crossed. Scripture never puts the Law in that position.

Look at the rich young ruler. Jesus didn’t give him a ladder to climb into heaven. He exposed a heart that thought it had already arrived. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, and when the man claimed he had, Jesus put His finger on what he loved more than God. The man walked away lost ~Matthew 19:22. The Law revealed him. It didn’t redeem him.

Now bring in Abraham. God already declared him righteous before any work showed up. “To him that worketh not, but believeth… his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. Then later, his obedience proved that faith was real ~James 2:23. That’s root and fruit, not two different ways of being saved.

Paul doesn’t leave this open for debate. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. If you could earn righteousness, “then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. And he says it plainly so nobody misses it: “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

The Law is not the problem. It is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. But its job is to expose sin and drive you to Christ, not to save you. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ” ~Galatians 3:24.

So let’s be clear. Obedience matters, but it comes after salvation, not before it. It is the evidence, not the cause. The moment you make obedience part of what saves you, you’ve left the gospel behind and stepped into another one.

This isn’t complicated. It’s already been answered in the text itself. The gospel is not Christ plus your effort. It is Christ alone who saves.

Yesua888, you said: ("Scriptual backing"?). It’s not about which side has more verses. It’s about what the verses actually say in context.

William uses good Scriptures but twists them to make Law-keeping part of salvation. That is false teaching. The Bible is clear: “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. “If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

Obedience matters, but it comes after salvation as fruit, not before as root. The gospel stands on Christ alone. That is the Scriptural backing. William’s additions do not line up with it.

 

[Yesua888]

Yesua888,

My replies are in context. If you see anything I have posted that is not in context, please let me know, showing me where.

We don’t need to stack verses like we’re building a case. God’s Word is not confused. It already stands in perfect agreement when you let it speak for itself.

What’s happening here is simple. Verses about the Law are being used to make obedience part of what saves you. That’s where the line gets crossed. Scripture never puts the Law in that position.

Look at the rich young ruler. Jesus didn’t give him a ladder to climb into heaven. He exposed a heart that thought it had already arrived. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, and when the man claimed he had, Jesus put His finger on what he loved more than God. The man walked away lost ~Matthew 19:22. The Law revealed him. It didn’t redeem him.

Now bring in Abraham. God already declared him righteous before any work showed up. “To him that worketh not, but believeth… his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. Then later, his obedience proved that faith was real ~James 2:23. That’s root and fruit, not two different ways of being saved.

Paul doesn’t leave this open for debate. “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. If you could earn righteousness, “then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. And he says it plainly so nobody misses it: “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

The Law is not the problem. It is “holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. But its job is to expose sin and drive you to Christ, not to save you. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ” ~Galatians 3:24.

So let’s be clear. Obedience matters, but it comes after salvation, not before it. It is the evidence, not the cause. The moment you make obedience part of what saves you, you’ve left the gospel behind and stepped into another one.

This isn’t complicated. It’s already been answered in the text itself. The gospel is not Christ plus your effort. It is Christ alone who saves.

Yesua888, you said: ("Scriptual backing"?). It’s not about which side has more verses. It’s about what the verses actually say in context.

William uses good Scriptures but twists them to make Law-keeping part of salvation. That is false teaching. The Bible is clear: “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” ~Romans 3:20. “If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

Obedience matters, but it comes after salvation as fruit, not before as root. The gospel stands on Christ alone. That is the Scriptural backing. William’s additions do not line up with it.

David,

I think the confusion for me comes, when I read the backward and forward "arguments" that often do not make sense or seem to be related. It can be very difficult to follow oftentimes : )

I know that it would be easier for everyone, if I were to gloss over these and move on, yet sometimes I just want to know what is actually being said, argued.

Even when explanations are given, I have to do more research to understand. For example: "Idolatry" - worshipping idols?

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus addresses the rich man’s idolatry (his wealth) in Matthew 19:21–22.

• The Command: Jesus tells him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Often reading the comments, does not put a pictue together. Eg. what is the "argument", how is the "quoted text" actually addressing the argument. Things seem to get lost, and go around in circles ... nothing is clear.

While human understanding is often clouded by sin and complexity, God provides clarity rather than confusion to those who seek Him. This clarity is primarily found in the Word of God (Scripture), which is described as lucid and easy to understand, providing clear direction for life and salvation despite the existence of some obscure passages.

God values transformation over mere information, so He does not always reveal every detail of His specific will for our decisions. Instead, He offers clarity through the Holy Spirit, a clear conscience, and the general guidance of Scripture, encouraging believers to focus on their relationship with Him rather than seeking exhaustive explanations for every circumstance.

How good it would be if we could follow God's clarity : )

 

[bobinfaith]

David,

I think the confusion for me comes, when I read the backward and forward "arguments" that often do not make sense or seem to be related. It can be very difficult to follow oftentimes : )

I know that it would be easier for everyone, if I were to gloss over these and move on, yet sometimes I just want to know what is actually being said, argued.

Even when explanations are given, I have to do more research to understand. For example: "Idolatry" - worshipping idols?

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus addresses the rich man’s idolatry (his wealth) in Matthew 19:21–22.

• The Command: Jesus tells him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Often reading the comments, does not put a pictue together. Eg. what is the "argument", how is the "quoted text" actually addressing the argument. Things seem to get lost, and go around in circles ... nothing is clear.

While human understanding is often clouded by sin and complexity, God provides clarity rather than confusion to those who seek Him. This clarity is primarily found in the Word of God (Scripture), which is described as lucid and easy to understand, providing clear direction for life and salvation despite the existence of some obscure passages.

God values transformation over mere information, so He does not always reveal every detail of His specific will for our decisions. Instead, He offers clarity through the Holy Spirit, a clear conscience, and the general guidance of Scripture, encouraging believers to focus on their relationship with Him rather than seeking exhaustive explanations for every circumstance.

How good it would be if we could follow God's clarity : )

Hello Yesua888;

You wrote: "I think the confusion for me comes, when I read the backward and forward "arguments" that often do not make sense or seem to be related. It can be very difficult to follow oftentimes : )"

I agree.

As a Bible reader, I attempt to be constructive in sharing and understanding the context of Scripture with others. I am always interested in how brothers and sisters share the application of Christ's teaching as well. This is my objective in fellowship with like believers.

In reading the topics, I will not be indirect with others, instead, will direct my question to the poster to clarify their understanding or interpretation, which I feel is what you also seek in many of these topics.

For example, we just returned from a trip overseas and there were many setbacks, more than we ever experience while traveling. WWJD? A brother shared with me that circumstances don't need to affect our attitudes. Instead, our attitudes can affect our circumstances.

Instead of wasting our oxygen with "backward and forward arguments" in a Biblical discussion, it's more beneficial to seek a common ground, even if we don't align with the Scriptures, instead, continue to dig deep, face the challenge in knowing the Bible. None of us will ever master God's Word in this lifetime, so constant learning is an ongoing goal.

God bless you, sister.

Bob

 

[Yesua888]

Instead of wasting our oxygen with "backward and forward arguments" in a Biblical discussion, it's more beneficial to seek a common ground, even if we don't align with the Scriptures, instead, continue to dig deep, face the challenge in knowing the Bible. None of us will ever master God's Word in this lifetime, so constant learning is an ongoing goal.

God bless you, sister.

Bob

Hi Bob,

It is so good to have you back ... and to hear that you are both safe and happy in Christ : )

It is more than likely that we will not completely master God's Word in this lifetime, and I don't believe that He intended for us to.

We have a wonderful opportunity to learn how to communicate with each other on BTF, as well as expose the Truth of Scripture, where we can all understand, where we feel safe to contribute and learn (bonus - getting to know each other better : )

Some of us are "new" to the Bible, others are exploring their spirituality, some like to questions everything, and others are streaks ahead in what they know to be the Truth.

Sometimes hard Truth hurts, and some may walk away, having learned very little ...

This verse popped up recently, and I realise that I am viewing it in a very different way now:
1 John 4:21 specifically commands believers regarding their brothers: "Whoever loves God must love his brother as well."

Balance ... Truth, Compassion, Understanding, Patience, and truly Caring about each other (where each one of us may end up). Yes, that's right, we cannot save the World, God does that, yet we can do our part, in the best way we can. Truly walking with Jesus, He leads the way!

BTF is very different to other forums, and this is wonderful ...
We have a unique opportunity to learn so much, about Scripture, about our brothers and sister, and so much more ...

You are a good balancer Bob, thank you

 

[David]

David,

I think the confusion for me comes, when I read the backward and forward "arguments" that often do not make sense or seem to be related. It can be very difficult to follow oftentimes : )

I know that it would be easier for everyone, if I were to gloss over these and move on, yet sometimes I just want to know what is actually being said, argued.

Even when explanations are given, I have to do more research to understand. For example: "Idolatry" - worshipping idols?

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus addresses the rich man’s idolatry (his wealth) in Matthew 19:21–22.

• The Command: Jesus tells him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Often reading the comments, does not put a pictue together. Eg. what is the "argument", how is the "quoted text" actually addressing the argument. Things seem to get lost, and go around in circles ... nothing is clear.

While human understanding is often clouded by sin and complexity, God provides clarity rather than confusion to those who seek Him. This clarity is primarily found in the Word of God (Scripture), which is described as lucid and easy to understand, providing clear direction for life and salvation despite the existence of some obscure passages.

God values transformation over mere information, so He does not always reveal every detail of His specific will for our decisions. Instead, He offers clarity through the Holy Spirit, a clear conscience, and the general guidance of Scripture, encouraging believers to focus on their relationship with Him rather than seeking exhaustive explanations for every circumstance.

How good it would be if we could follow God's clarity : )

I understand the confusion. That’s exactly what false teaching produces. Scripture says, “God is not the author of confusion” ~1 Corinthians 14:33. When things start going in circles and not making sense, that’s not coming from the Word itself. It’s coming from people mixing what God has already made clear.

That’s one reason Biblical Truth Forum exists. Not to run people off at the first sign of error, but to expose it in the open so others can see what Scripture actually says. “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear” ~1 Timothy 5:20. And again, “Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” ~Romans 16:17. The goal is clarity for those who are trying to understand, not endless arguing.

What you’re running into with the “back and forth” is this. One side is letting Scripture define salvation. The other side is blending obedience into the saving itself. That’s why the verses seem disconnected. They’re being used out of their role.

Take your question about idolatry. You’re right to think deeper than statues. Scripture defines it for you. “Covetousness, which is idolatry” ~Colossians 3:5. It’s anything that takes God’s place in the heart.

So in ~Matthew 19:21-22, Jesus wasn’t giving a new rule to earn eternal life. He was exposing the man’s idol. The man claimed he kept the commandments, but when his wealth was touched, he walked away. That showed the truth about his heart. The Law revealed his sin. It didn’t save him.

That’s the piece that makes everything else fall into place. The Law exposes. Christ saves. When those get mixed together, everything turns into confusion.

You also said something important. God gives clarity. That is true. “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” ~Psalm 119:130. And “All scripture is given by inspiration of God… that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” ~2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Word is enough. It is clear on what matters most, especially salvation.

But Scripture also warns why confusion happens. “There are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest… unto their own destruction” ~2 Peter 3:16. That’s exactly what you’re seeing. Not a problem with the Word, but people twisting it.

So don’t gloss over it. Test it. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. Compare Scripture with Scripture and keep each verse in its place.

Here’s the straight line through it all. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. After that, a changed life follows. Not to become saved, but because you are. “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead” ~James 2:17. That’s fruit, not the root.

If you keep that order clear, the confusion starts to fall away. And that’s the clarity you were talking about. Not man’s arguments, but letting God’s Word speak for itself.

 

[David]

Instead of wasting our oxygen with "backward and forward arguments" in a Biblical discussion, it's more beneficial to seek a common ground, even if we don't align with the Scriptures, instead, continue to dig deep, face the challenge in knowing the Bible. None of us will ever master God's Word in this lifetime, so constant learning is an ongoing goal.

I hear what you’re saying about not getting trapped in endless back and forth. That part is real. None of us have exhausted the depth of God’s Word, and we should stay teachable. But here’s the line we cannot cross. Growth never means loosening the truth. Learning never means blending what God has already separated.

See, the gospel isn’t a discussion table where everybody brings a piece and we try to make it fit. The gospel is a declaration. God has already spoken. And when God speaks, He doesn’t leave room for negotiation. Paul didn’t say, “find some middle ground if the views are close.” He said, “If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:9. That’s not harsh for the sake of being harsh. That’s God guarding the only message that saves.

Think about it like this. If the foundation is off, it doesn’t matter how polite the conversation is on top of it. The whole structure is compromised. Unity that is built without truth is not unity at all. It’s agreement to ignore what God said. And Scripture cuts straight through that idea. “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” ~Amos 3:3. Agreement isn’t about meeting halfway. It’s about standing in the same place God has already defined.

So yes, avoid empty arguments that go nowhere. But don’t confuse that with stepping back from truth. When it comes to the gospel, there is no middle lane. You either stand on what God said, or you drift into something else.

Real unity happens when both of us come under the Word, not when we try to reshape the Word to fit both of us. That’s where clarity lives. That’s where the noise dies down. And that’s where the gospel stays untouched, exactly as God gave it.

If I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, feel free to clarify.

 

[bobinfaith]

See, the gospel isn’t a discussion table where everybody brings a piece and we try to make it fit. The gospel is a declaration. God has already spoken. And when God speaks, He doesn’t leave room for negotiation. Paul didn’t say, “find some middle ground if the views are close.” He said, “If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:9. That’s not harsh for the sake of being harsh. That’s God guarding the only message that saves.

Think about it like this. If the foundation is off, it doesn’t matter how polite the conversation is on top of it. The whole structure is compromised. Unity that is built without truth is not unity at all. It’s agreement to ignore what God said.

And Scripture cuts straight through that idea. “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” ~Amos 3:3. Agreement isn’t about meeting halfway. It’s about standing in the same place God has already defined.

Hello David;

I feel we're in accord here and what I blue-lighted, I am mindful and desire to bring to the fellowship.

Paul is correct. He didn't say, find some "middle ground" regarding the Scriptures. The Bible is straight up, there is no room for patronizing which is a form of dishonesty.

The "common ground" I'm referring to is when believers who may have different interpretations of Scripture are able to continue the discussion (work it out) while sustaining shared core foundations in Christ.

To be brutally honest, not all can practice this discipline. This takes a seasoned and a disciplined believer's disposition, discernment and attitude in all circumstances.

This doesn't happen overnight. God empowers each of us to grow in this area as a disciple. I still need correction and this is where asking questions, listening to what I'm hearing / reading and being teachable.

God bless everyone here.

Bob

 

[David]

The "common ground" I'm referring to is when believers who may have different interpretations of Scripture are able to continue the discussion (work it out) while sustaining shared core foundations in Christ.

I appreciate you clarifying what you mean by “common ground.” I agree with that. The gospel itself is not up for discussion or negotiation, it’s a declaration. But among believers who already stand on the same foundation in Christ, there can be room to talk through different understandings on secondary things without breaking fellowship.

That seems to be what Paul was getting at in Romans 14. He didn’t treat differences over food or holy days as false teaching. He told them to accept one another and not judge on those points, even while each was “fully persuaded in his own mind” ~Romans 14:5. The core had to stay the same, but there was liberty in the rest.

I’m with you on that. As long as the gospel is held tight, seasoned believers should be able to discuss other matters with teachability and love. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[Yesua888]

Hello David;

I feel we're in accord here and what I blue-lighted, I am mindful and desire to bring to the fellowship.

Paul is correct. He didn't say, find some "middle ground" regarding the Scriptures. The Bible is straight up, there is no room for patronizing which is a form of dishonesty.

The "common ground" I'm referring to is when believers who may have different interpretations of Scripture are able to continue the discussion (work it out) while sustaining shared core foundations in Christ.

To be brutally honest, not all can practice this discipline. This takes a seasoned and a disciplined believer's disposition, discernment and attitude in all circumstances.

This doesn't happen overnight. God empowers each of us to grow in this area as a disciple. I still need correction and this is where asking questions, listening to what I'm hearing / reading and being teachable.

God bless everyone here.

Bob

"Show me the forum" ... where it's members can converse, share Truth, disagree or not, get to know each other (safely), and L E A R N from each other (no matter what "spiritual level" they are on).
This is Awesome!

 

[Yesua888]

TALKING ABOUT CONFUSION:
Which version of the Bible is the closest to the original "word of God"?

Eg. What is God's purpose of Man on this planet now?

Ephesians 3:10

New Living Translation
God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

English Standard Version
so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
"made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places" ... for someone new to the Bible, this is hard to understand?

Berean Standard Bible
His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

King James Bible
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

When other "beliefs" (other than Scripture) come into play, there is even more confusion.

I guess what I am highlighting here, is that Scripture can be difficult to interpret/understand.

Thank you David and Bob, for your "relentlessness" (for want of a better word), and devotion to God, in discussing and pointing us in the right direction, when we are confused : )

 

[gordon777]

Yesua888, you’ve got to see what’s really happening here. Those verses william77 brought up don’t support his point. When you read them in full, they actually tear it down.

When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to the idol he wouldn’t surrender. The man walked away sorrowful ~Matthew 19:22. Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping.

Now bring in Abraham. Scripture already settled this. “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” ~Genesis 15:6. That was before Isaac was ever laid on the altar. James doesn’t contradict that. He shows the evidence. When Abraham offered Isaac, it proved the faith he already had ~James 2:21-23. Paul locks it down: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God” ~Romans 4:2.

So Paul and James are not fighting each other. They’re standing shoulder to shoulder. One shows the root, the other shows the fruit. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” ~Romans 3:20. “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. Real faith produces works, but works never produce salvation. Only Christ saves.

Don’t misunderstand the Law. It’s not the enemy. “The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” ~Romans 7:12. But it was never given to justify you. It was given to expose you, to bring you face to face with your need. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24.

So this isn’t rejecting the Law. This is understanding its purpose. The moment you try to add Law-keeping as a condition for salvation, you’ve stepped out of grace. “Christ is become of no effect unto you… ye are fallen from grace” ~Galatians 5:4.

Here’s the line you don’t cross. Salvation is not Christ plus your effort. It is Christ alone. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

"When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to the idol he wouldn’t surrender. The man walked away sorrowful ~Matthew 19:22. Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping."


The law does not reveal the young rich man's sin, this is the purpose of Jesus Christ coming to the earth in the flesh, sent of the Father, revealing everyone that is of the law/of the flesh, that was and is weak through the flesh, condemns/judges sin in the flesh/those of the law, as the law did not judge anyone in it/of the flesh, it just kept them in it, and is therefore the law of sin and death. This separates those of the flesh, who are of the law, and are not of the Spirit, from those of the Spirit who keep the righteousness of the law. The righteousness of the law is not the same law therefore that is being of the flesh, but being not of the flesh, but of the Spirit. It is why Jesus testifies that if He had not come, ( in the flesh) they would have no sin, as the law does not reveal anyone's sin, but it is also what Jesus came to do/the works no other man had done, which reveal those in the law as being in sin, because of NOW both seeing and hating both the Son and the Father (who sent Him.) and that is fulfilment of what is written in their law, and why the law was written and why it is not the law revealing their sin, only that it testifies to them from their own source, that they hate the God they claim to follow, with no reasoning.

The law can reveal nothing, what apostle Paul teaches in Romans 7, is spiritual, or foolishness to natural man, but it is the power of God to those that believe, apostle Paul is consenting to the law that it is good, having a will present, but HOW TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD HE FINDS NOT, do we see ANY SIMILARITY IN THE YOUNG RICH MAN, GOING AWAY FROM CHRIST UNABLE TO PERFORM WHAT HE LACKED.

The law was kept by the young rich man, as Jesus CONFIRMED, BY SAYING HE ONLY LACKED ONE THING, this WAS NOT THEN THE YOUNG MAN CLAIMING ANYTHING, IT WAS PERFORMED.

The law does not and did not reveal anyone's sin, the scripture is the Spirit revealing that the world has sin, which is righteousness because the Son goes to the Father and we see Him no more, ( risen/quickened together with Him.) and then sin because they believe not on Him, ( risen by the faith of the operation of God who HAS RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.) and this is the prince of this world judged, not the young rich ruler...





John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[gordon777]

Listen to this one from Scripture itself. You are Not trusting in Christ alone you are obstructing the gospel. You're not just missing it, you're standing in the way of the true gospel, peddling a deadly mix of law and grace that Scripture calls another gospel. Jesus did not give this rich young ruler a list of things to do so that He might have eternal life. He sliced that man open with the sword of the gospel: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Jesus revealed this man could NOT GET INTO LIFE by keeping the law because he trusted in his OWN righteousness. He walked away sad. ~Matthew 19:17-22 (KJV). You see, the law exposes and kills our pride. It doesn’t save by being kept.

James 2 is not your passage for works salvation. James says if your faith has no works it is dead. Dead like a corpse. James is making the point that true faith produces evidence. When Abraham believed God in Genesis 15(Genesis 15: 6), even before Isaac was ever brought to the altar God said Abraham “because he believed God, it was counted unto him for righteousness.” James BOOM! Quotes THAT very verse for emphasis! Faith produces works because it IS faithful, alive faith. Not a list of works you did to buy your way in!

Paul drives the door nail through with Romans 4: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God... But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” ~Romans 4:2,5 (KJV). You plug law keeping into salvation like its gonna make faith whole again. That’s GALATIANS!! Paul didn’t whisper here. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Twice. Let. Him. Be. Accursed. ~Galatians 1: 8-9 (KJV) Salvation comes by grace THROUGH faith. Period. Not of works lest any man should boast. ~ Ephesians 2: 8-9 ANYTHING ELSE is cursed Gospel of DEATH! !

This is not some Bible study debate. This is the Bible pounding your heart in alarm. Stop telling people “do this” and “live.” REPENT AND BELIEVE ON CHRIST ALONE His precious blood, His substitutionary death on the cross, His once finished work or you too will stand before God on Judgment Day with all your good deeds in your hand only to hear Jesus say the most terrifying words to hear; ” Depart from me, I never knew you.” SCRIPTURE HAS SAID IT!” Let EVERY MAN NOW GIVE ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF UNTO GOD.” Repent, trust Christ alone today. Choose who you will serve.

True good works in a believer flow only from knowing and loving the Savior Jesus Christ, not to earn His favor but because we love Him who first loved us. ~John 14:15 (KJV): “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” ~2 Corinthians 5:14: “For the love of Christ constraineth us.” Anything else is self-righteous striving, not the fruit of grace.

"James 2 is not your passage for works salvation. James says if your faith has no works it is dead. Dead like a corpse. James is making the point that true faith produces evidence. When Abraham believed God in Genesis 15(Genesis 15: 6), even before Isaac was ever brought to the altar God said Abraham “because he believed God, it was counted unto him for righteousness.” James BOOM! Quotes THAT very verse for emphasis! Faith produces works because it IS faithful, alive faith. Not a list of works you did to buy your way in!"

"Paul drives the door nail through with Romans 4: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God... But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” ~Romans 4:2,5 (KJV). You plug law keeping into salvation like its gonna make faith whole again. "....


It seems William is too much for law, and David, ( yourself) is too much for no law. Both are in a tussle to support these positions, and cant handle/manage one another effectively.

I am neither for law, nor against, I am what you could say in the middle.

James 2 tells of justification, which is very important, as Romans 4 speaks of the very same. Again James 2 speaks as Romans 4 does, of Abraham being our father, and this is not using a term like anyone's father. but specifically but the speaking of Abraham being made to be the father of us all, who had believed in God calling those things which be not as though they are. ( Isaac before being born.) and Romans 4 LISTS MORE, of Abraham not considering his body now DEAD, neither the DEADNESS of Sarahs womb, and it was imputed unto Abraham for righteousness, and not for his sake only, but for us also, as we are also called to believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the DEAD. (As James 2 speaks of justification, Romans 4 ends on it, of why Jesus was delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification.)

James 2 is not unrelated, it is the same testimony, of Abraham offering his only begotten son upon the altar, making the faith perfect, fulfilling the scripture, being called the friend of God. ( as Jesus confirms we CANNOT DO ANY DIFFERENTLY TO ABRAHAM, saying, we are His friends, IF WE DO ALL WHATSOEVER HE COMMANDS US, belief in the greater love of Jesus laying HIs life down for His friends and we are to LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS HE HAS LOVED US/BELIEF AND THE DOING OF IT ARE INSEPERABLE AND ARE ONE AND SAME.)

Also Abraham received Isaac in a figure, meaning that works are essential, because if Jesus had not done the works, there is no life, no faith, and this is why works are not able to be dismissed, because it is making faith perfect. ( for the perfecting of the saints, till we all come in the unity of the faith, of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man: unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ/grow up unto Him in all things.)...


John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[gordon777]

Do we see now what was MADE PERFECT ?

Whose faith was MADE PERFECT ?

It was our Lord Jesus Christ, the learning of obedience by the things which we suffer, that was the tempting of Abraham to offer his only begotten son on the altar, for the works to make the faith perfect, ( the works of Jesus Christ our Lord being the Lamb of God provided as Abraham had answered when Isaac asks where is the lamb for the offering. ( the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.)..


Genesis 22:7And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction....


( hard to be uttered about these matters/speaking of these things which are hard to be understood, but we are called to the obedience OF FAITH/UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM.)..


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF THE EVERLASTING GOD, MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[gordon777]

TALKING ABOUT CONFUSION:
Which version of the Bible is the closest to the original "word of God"?

Eg. What is God's purpose of Man on this planet now?

Ephesians 3:10

New Living Translation
God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

English Standard Version
so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
"made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places" ... for someone new to the Bible, this is hard to understand?

Berean Standard Bible
His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

King James Bible
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

When other "beliefs" (other than Scripture) come into play, there is even more confusion.

I guess what I am highlighting here, is that Scripture can be difficult to interpret/understand.

Thank you David and Bob, for your "relentlessness" (for want of a better word), and devotion to God, in discussing and pointing us in the right direction, when we are confused : )

Do you remember we are to convert and become as little children, and this is where understanding begins, and children can pick things up so well, have no problems at all, it just depends who their father is.

When apostle Paul was present, there was no confusion at all, he is not one confused, but knowing all very clearly, and for understanding there is charity for edifying, which is belief in what Jesus Christ our Lord did for us, the same belief that Paul walked by, to also walk in charity, which endures so many afflictions, and why should we listen to anyone else, and that shows where difficulty and understanding are, we have the narrow way exampled, should we not walk on it, in the same faith, believing the same way so we can receive instruction from the Spirit, and definitely not expecting to be pointed in the right direction by words, that is what all other religions have in common, they have nobody and nothing to follow.

 

[bobinfaith]

It seems William is too much for law, and David, ( yourself) is too much for no law. Both are in a tussle to support these positions, and cant handle/manage one another effectively. I am neither for law, nor against, I am what you could say in the middle.

Hello Gordon777;

Welcome to Biblical Truth Forum. We hope you enjoy the discussions and fellowship with everyone here.

Thank you for your commentary and Scriptures which prompted a response from me. The law and "too much of no law" isn't that simple, however, by your providing Scriptures does allow us to go back and dig deeper on what God says and reveals us to a clearer understanding of the Law, and Jesus' fulfillment.

We usually refer to the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy which bring us to the verb of God's people walking in obedience and fully desiring to love God. Jesus brings us into the law of Christ, to a new obedience of love and faith while He abounds us with His love commands and grace.

I feel to be in the middle, gordon777, is a lukewarm position and does not align with God's Word. There's more to the context when we witness to others for Christ.

God bless you, gordon, and your entire family.

Bob

 

[gordon777]

Hello Gordon777;

Welcome to Biblical Truth Forum. We hope you enjoy the discussions and fellowship with everyone here.

Thank you for your commentary and Scriptures which prompted a response from me. The law and "too much of no law" isn't that simple, however, by your providing Scriptures does allow us to go back and dig deeper on what God says and reveals us to a clearer understanding of the Law, and Jesus' fulfillment.

We usually refer to the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy which bring us to the verb of God's people walking in obedience and fully desiring to love God. Jesus brings us into the law of Christ, to a new obedience of love and faith while He abounds us with His love commands and grace.

I feel to be in the middle, gordon777, is a lukewarm position and does not align with God's Word. There's more to the context when we witness to others for Christ.

God bless you, gordon, and your entire family.

Bob

"
The law and "too much of no law" isn't that simple, however, by your providing Scriptures does allow us to go back and dig deeper on what God says and reveals us to a clearer understanding of the Law, and Jesus' fulfillment. "...


It is very simple, there are teachers of law, and the law is not of faith, and there is too much of no law, which is the grace side and by grace only etc.

Jesus fulfilled the law by being made a curse for us, so we are no longer under the curse of the law. ( what else do you see Jesus fulfilled to bring us blessing, and not a curse/any fulfilment of a law)...


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith......





"We usually refer to the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy which bring us to the verb of God's people walking in obedience and fully desiring to love God. Jesus brings us into the law of Christ, to a new obedience of love and faith while He abounds us with His love commands and grace."


The same people of Israel said they loved God, yet Jesus has to tell them face to face, they should have..


John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.



As for the law of Christ, it is the law of faith, against which there is no law, as the law was not made for a righteous man but for the disobedient, now we have the obedience of faith, as I have posted here in scripture, for us all...


1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST WHICH THERE IS NO LAW.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[gordon777]

"I feel to be in the middle, gordon777, is a lukewarm position and does not align with God's Word."


Or middle is a just weight and balance and then does align



Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.

Proverbs 16:11 A just weight and balance are the Lord's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

 

[David]

"When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ~Matthew 19:17, but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to the idol he wouldn’t surrender. The man walked away sorrowful ~Matthew 19:22. Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping."

I believe you are making this harder than the text makes it. Scripture plainly says the Law exposes sin. Paul said, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. He also said, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God.

That is exactly what happened with the rich young ruler. He asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16. Jesus answered him according to the commandments, and when the man claimed, “All these things have I kept from my youth up,” Jesus exposed what still ruled his heart. “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor... and come and follow me” ~Matthew 19:21.

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart.

So when Jesus said, “One thing thou lackest” ~Mark 10:21, He was not confirming sinless obedience. He was exposing the man’s need. The man lacked the very thing salvation requires: surrendering self and following Christ.

John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other.

The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24. Salvation is not by Law-keeping. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:9.

 

[gordon777]

I believe you are making this harder than the text makes it. Scripture plainly says the Law exposes sin. Paul said, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. He also said, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God.

That is exactly what happened with the rich young ruler. He asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16. Jesus answered him according to the commandments, and when the man claimed, “All these things have I kept from my youth up,” Jesus exposed what still ruled his heart. “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor... and come and follow me” ~Matthew 19:21.

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart.

So when Jesus said, “One thing thou lackest” ~Mark 10:21, He was not confirming sinless obedience. He was exposing the man’s need. The man lacked the very thing salvation requires: surrendering self and following Christ.

John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other.

The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24. Salvation is not by Law-keeping. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:9.

"I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God."...



No point in leaving out the other verses.


We are become dead to the law, as we were held dead in it, that is not the law therefore revealing sin, but it is the law keeping us very much in it.

We in the flesh/in the law are bringing forth fruit unto death, now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, as for knowing sin, all we had received weas the law saying thou shall not covet. ( the law still revealed nothing to us, otherwise we could not be held dead in it and fruitless.)...


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet....



Romans 6 speaks the same just before Romans 7, take a look...


Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[gordon777]

I believe you are making this harder than the text makes it. Scripture plainly says the Law exposes sin. Paul said, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. He also said, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God.

That is exactly what happened with the rich young ruler. He asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16. Jesus answered him according to the commandments, and when the man claimed, “All these things have I kept from my youth up,” Jesus exposed what still ruled his heart. “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor... and come and follow me” ~Matthew 19:21.

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart.

So when Jesus said, “One thing thou lackest” ~Mark 10:21, He was not confirming sinless obedience. He was exposing the man’s need. The man lacked the very thing salvation requires: surrendering self and following Christ.

John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other.

The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24. Salvation is not by Law-keeping. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:9.

"

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart."



Others kept the law perfectly/blamelessly


Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.



As for all coming short of the glory of God, because the glory of God is faith, which is Jesus Christ our Lord, the rich man had kept all perfectly, it was not disputed, and cannot be, it was where your heart is your treasure is, and why a rich man can hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven, whether in the law or not.

 

[gordon777]

I believe you are making this harder than the text makes it. Scripture plainly says the Law exposes sin. Paul said, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. He also said, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God.

That is exactly what happened with the rich young ruler. He asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16. Jesus answered him according to the commandments, and when the man claimed, “All these things have I kept from my youth up,” Jesus exposed what still ruled his heart. “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor... and come and follow me” ~Matthew 19:21.

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart.

So when Jesus said, “One thing thou lackest” ~Mark 10:21, He was not confirming sinless obedience. He was exposing the man’s need. The man lacked the very thing salvation requires: surrendering self and following Christ.

John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other.

The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24. Salvation is not by Law-keeping. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:9.

"John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other."...



Sin is only when the world becomes guilty before God, when there are no more excuses, and when the commandment to repent to all men was given. ( confirmation to all men that God has raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.)...


Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[David]

It seems William is too much for law, and David, ( yourself) is too much for no law. Both are in a tussle to support these positions, and cant handle/manage one another effectively.

I am neither for law, nor against, I am what you could say in the middle.

That is not what I am teaching. I am not “too much for no law.” I am saying the Law is not the basis of justification before God. Scripture says plainly, “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

There is no “middle” position on justification. Either Christ justifies the sinner by grace through faith, or works are being added to the ground of salvation.

So the issue is simple: are you saying works are the evidence of saving faith, or are you saying works are part of the basis by which God justifies a sinner?

Scripture teaches the first, not the second. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

James shows that real faith is never barren, but James does not turn works into the ground of salvation. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous before Isaac was ever offered ~Genesis 15:6. His obedience later proved the faith was real.

Works belong as evidence, not as the foundation. Good works matter, but they follow salvation. They do not purchase it, complete it, or become the ground of it.

Christ alone is the foundation. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” ~1 Corinthians 3:11.

 

[gordon777]

" but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin."..

You speak of the knowledge of sin, yet dont seem to see when knowledge of salvation came..

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

 

[David]

"I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God."...



No point in leaving out the other verses.


We are become dead to the law, as we were held dead in it, that is not the law therefore revealing sin, but it is the law keeping us very much in it.

We in the flesh/in the law are bringing forth fruit unto death, now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, as for knowing sin, all we had received weas the law saying thou shall not covet. ( the law still revealed nothing to us, otherwise we could not be held dead in it and fruitless.)...


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet....



Romans 6 speaks the same just before Romans 7, take a look...


Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

You are arguing against Paul’s own words. Paul did not say the Law removes sin, saves from sin, or gives life. I already said it cannot do that. But Paul did say plainly, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. That is not unclear.

Being “delivered from the law” does not mean the Law never exposed sin. It means the believer is no longer under the Law as a covenant of condemnation. Romans 7:4-6 teaches deliverance from the Law’s dominion, not denial of the Law’s purpose.

Paul’s point is simple. The Law is holy, but sinful flesh uses the commandment to bring guilt and death. That is why he says, “the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death” ~Romans 7:10.

So yes, the Law exposed sin. It showed man’s guilt. It stirred up what was already in the flesh. But it could not free man from sin. Only Christ can.

That is exactly why Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20, and then says sinners are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24.

You are confusing two different truths. The Law exposes sin, but Christ delivers from sin. Both are true. The Law is not the Savior. Christ is.

 

[gordon777]

I believe you are making this harder than the text makes it. Scripture plainly says the Law exposes sin. Paul said, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. He also said, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. So yes, the Law does reveal sin. It cannot remove sin. It cannot justify. It cannot give life. But it does expose man’s guilt before God.

That is exactly what happened with the rich young ruler. He asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” ~Matthew 19:16. Jesus answered him according to the commandments, and when the man claimed, “All these things have I kept from my youth up,” Jesus exposed what still ruled his heart. “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor... and come and follow me” ~Matthew 19:21.

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart.

So when Jesus said, “One thing thou lackest” ~Mark 10:21, He was not confirming sinless obedience. He was exposing the man’s need. The man lacked the very thing salvation requires: surrendering self and following Christ.

John 15 does not cancel Romans 3 or Romans 7. Christ’s coming exposed sin in its fullest light, but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin. Those truths do not fight each other.

The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” ~Galatians 3:24. Salvation is not by Law-keeping. It is by grace through faith in Christ alone. “Not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:9.

"The point remains simple: the Law is holy, but it does not save. It exposes sin and points us to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith”"...



No point is remaining, because the law does nothing, the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


The law as told and as you dont focus on, was NOT OF FAITH, and therefore cant reveal anything that is of or having faith...


John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

 

[gordon777]

That is not what I am teaching. I am not “too much for no law.” I am saying the Law is not the basis of justification before God. Scripture says plainly, “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

There is no “middle” position on justification. Either Christ justifies the sinner by grace through faith, or works are being added to the ground of salvation.

So the issue is simple: are you saying works are the evidence of saving faith, or are you saying works are part of the basis by which God justifies a sinner?

Scripture teaches the first, not the second. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

James shows that real faith is never barren, but James does not turn works into the ground of salvation. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous before Isaac was ever offered ~Genesis 15:6. His obedience later proved the faith was real.

Works belong as evidence, not as the foundation. Good works matter, but they follow salvation. They do not purchase it, complete it, or become the ground of it.

Christ alone is the foundation. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” ~1 Corinthians 3:11.

Abraham has to have faith made perfect, if Abraham did not offer the only begotten son on the altar he would not have received him in a figure.

 

[gordon777]

You are arguing against Paul’s own words. Paul did not say the Law removes sin, saves from sin, or gives life. I already said it cannot do that. But Paul did say plainly, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. That is not unclear.

Being “delivered from the law” does not mean the Law never exposed sin. It means the believer is no longer under the Law as a covenant of condemnation. Romans 7:4-6 teaches deliverance from the Law’s dominion, not denial of the Law’s purpose.

Paul’s point is simple. The Law is holy, but sinful flesh uses the commandment to bring guilt and death. That is why he says, “the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death” ~Romans 7:10.

So yes, the Law exposed sin. It showed man’s guilt. It stirred up what was already in the flesh. But it could not free man from sin. Only Christ can.

That is exactly why Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20, and then says sinners are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24.

You are confusing two different truths. The Law exposes sin, but Christ delivers from sin. Both are true. The Law is not the Savior. Christ is.

"Being “delivered from the law” does not mean the Law never exposed sin. It means the believer is no longer under the Law as a covenant of condemnation. Romans 7:4-6 teaches deliverance from the Law’s dominion, not denial of the Law’s purpose."


Being in death, as Romans 6 witnesses, for those under the law, means little of use is exposed or revealed by any law.

 

[David]

"

The issue was not that the man had truly kept the Law perfectly. Scripture says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. His sorrow proved the idol was still there. His possessions had his heart."



Others kept the law perfectly/blamelessly


Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.



As for all coming short of the glory of God, because the glory of God is faith, which is Jesus Christ our Lord, the rich man had kept all perfectly, it was not disputed, and cannot be, it was where your heart is your treasure is, and why a rich man can hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven, whether in the law or not.

Those verses do not prove sinless Law-keeping. Luke 1:6 says Zacharias and Elisabeth were “blameless” in their walk under the commandments, not sinless before God. If they were sinless, they would not need a Savior. But Mary said, “my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” ~Luke 1:47, and that same need belongs to all men.

Philippians 3:6 proves the same point. Paul said he was “touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless,” but then he counted that whole record as loss. Why? Because it could not justify him before God. He said he wanted to “be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ” ~Philippians 3:9.

So “blameless” does not mean sinless. It means no outward charge could be laid against them according to that standard. But Scripture still says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23.

The rich young ruler was not proven sinless. Jesus exposed the very thing he would not surrender. His treasure had his heart. That is sin.

So the point still stands: the Law can expose sin, but it cannot save. Christ alone saves.

 

[gordon777]

You are arguing against Paul’s own words. Paul did not say the Law removes sin, saves from sin, or gives life. I already said it cannot do that. But Paul did say plainly, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. That is not unclear.

Being “delivered from the law” does not mean the Law never exposed sin. It means the believer is no longer under the Law as a covenant of condemnation. Romans 7:4-6 teaches deliverance from the Law’s dominion, not denial of the Law’s purpose.

Paul’s point is simple. The Law is holy, but sinful flesh uses the commandment to bring guilt and death. That is why he says, “the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death” ~Romans 7:10.

So yes, the Law exposed sin. It showed man’s guilt. It stirred up what was already in the flesh. But it could not free man from sin. Only Christ can.

That is exactly why Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20, and then says sinners are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24.

You are confusing two different truths. The Law exposes sin, but Christ delivers from sin. Both are true. The Law is not the Savior. Christ is.

"Paul’s point is simple. The Law is holy, but sinful flesh uses the commandment to bring guilt and death. That is why he says, “the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death” ~Romans 7:10."


Paul says what is of the law he found to be unto death, this is as much as you are revealing about the law, nothing more.

 

[gordon777]

You are arguing against Paul’s own words. Paul did not say the Law removes sin, saves from sin, or gives life. I already said it cannot do that. But Paul did say plainly, “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. That is not unclear.

Being “delivered from the law” does not mean the Law never exposed sin. It means the believer is no longer under the Law as a covenant of condemnation. Romans 7:4-6 teaches deliverance from the Law’s dominion, not denial of the Law’s purpose.

Paul’s point is simple. The Law is holy, but sinful flesh uses the commandment to bring guilt and death. That is why he says, “the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death” ~Romans 7:10.

So yes, the Law exposed sin. It showed man’s guilt. It stirred up what was already in the flesh. But it could not free man from sin. Only Christ can.

That is exactly why Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20, and then says sinners are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24.

You are confusing two different truths. The Law exposes sin, but Christ delivers from sin. Both are true. The Law is not the Savior. Christ is.

"That is exactly why Paul says, “by the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20, and then says sinners are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24."..


Because there is no knowledge of salvation in the law.

Grace came by Jesus, not by the law, see the verses..


Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[David]

" but Paul still says plainly that the Law gives the knowledge of sin."..

You speak of the knowledge of sin, yet dont seem to see when knowledge of salvation came..

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

We are starting to circle the same issue now. Scripture has already answered it plainly. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. The Law exposes sin, but it does not save. Christ saves.

Luke 1:77 does not undo Romans 3:20. The Law gives the knowledge of sin. Christ gives the knowledge of salvation through the remission of sins. Those truths stand together.

So I am not going to keep repeating the same point with every new verse brought in. The biblical order is clear: the Law exposes guilt, Christ brings forgiveness, and good works follow saving faith. They are not the ground of justification.

 

[gordon777]

Those verses do not prove sinless Law-keeping. Luke 1:6 says Zacharias and Elisabeth were “blameless” in their walk under the commandments, not sinless before God. If they were sinless, they would not need a Savior. But Mary said, “my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” ~Luke 1:47, and that same need belongs to all men.

Philippians 3:6 proves the same point. Paul said he was “touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless,” but then he counted that whole record as loss. Why? Because it could not justify him before God. He said he wanted to “be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ” ~Philippians 3:9.

So “blameless” does not mean sinless. It means no outward charge could be laid against them according to that standard. But Scripture still says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23.

The rich young ruler was not proven sinless. Jesus exposed the very thing he would not surrender. His treasure had his heart. That is sin.

So the point still stands: the Law can expose sin, but it cannot save. Christ alone saves.

"
Those verses do not prove sinless Law-keeping. Luke 1:6 says Zacharias and Elisabeth were “blameless” in their walk under the commandments, not sinless before God. If they were sinless, they would not need a Savior. But Mary said, “my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” ~Luke 1:47, and that same need belongs to all men.

Philippians 3:6 proves the same point. Paul said he was “touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless,” but then he counted that whole record as loss. Why? Because it could not justify him before God. He said he wanted to “be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ” ~Philippians 3:9."...



The young rich ruler still kept the commandments of the law, as the law clearly did not reveal a thing and then it was revealed and rejected, not a mirror as you say, but by the presence of the Son of God in the flesh on earth.

 

[gordon777]

Those verses do not prove sinless Law-keeping. Luke 1:6 says Zacharias and Elisabeth were “blameless” in their walk under the commandments, not sinless before God. If they were sinless, they would not need a Savior. But Mary said, “my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” ~Luke 1:47, and that same need belongs to all men.

Philippians 3:6 proves the same point. Paul said he was “touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless,” but then he counted that whole record as loss. Why? Because it could not justify him before God. He said he wanted to “be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ” ~Philippians 3:9.

So “blameless” does not mean sinless. It means no outward charge could be laid against them according to that standard. But Scripture still says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23.

The rich young ruler was not proven sinless. Jesus exposed the very thing he would not surrender. His treasure had his heart. That is sin.

So the point still stands: the Law can expose sin, but it cannot save. Christ alone saves.

"
So “blameless” does not mean sinless. It means no outward charge could be laid against them according to that standard. But Scripture still says, “there is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23.

The rich young ruler was not proven sinless. Jesus exposed the very thing he would not surrender. His treasure had his heart. That is sin.

So the point still stands: the Law can expose sin, but it cannot save. Christ alone saves."...



You have no point but your own word, the scripture says there are none righteous, but the rich ruler believed he was, yet it is only by the preaching of what was not told in the law, that saves anyone.

Jesus exposed the truth, the law cant do what Jesus is doing, you have to pick one or the other.

 

[David]

Abraham has to have faith made perfect, if Abraham did not offer the only begotten son on the altar he would not have received him in a figure.

You are still skipping the order of the text. Abraham was counted righteous in Genesis 15:6: “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Isaac was offered later in Genesis 22.

That means Abraham’s obedience did not become the basis of his righteousness before God. It proved the faith he already had.

James does not say Abraham’s works replaced faith or helped purchase justification. James says his faith was “made perfect” by works ~James 2:22, meaning his faith was brought to full expression and shown to be real. Then James quotes Genesis 15:6, the very verse where Abraham was counted righteous by believing God ~James 2:23.

Hebrews says the same thing: “By faith Abraham... offered up Isaac” ~Hebrews 11:17. The work came from faith. The work did not create saving faith.

So the issue is settled by Scripture. Works prove living faith. They do not become the ground of justification. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

That is the line Scripture draws.

 

[gordon777]

We are starting to circle the same issue now. Scripture has already answered it plainly. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. “I had not known sin, but by the law” ~Romans 7:7. The Law exposes sin, but it does not save. Christ saves.

Luke 1:77 does not undo Romans 3:20. The Law gives the knowledge of sin. Christ gives the knowledge of salvation through the remission of sins. Those truths stand together.

So I am not going to keep repeating the same point with every new verse brought in. The biblical order is clear: the Law exposes guilt, Christ brings forgiveness, and good works follow saving faith. They are not the ground of justification.

We knew sin because of the law saying to not covet, but being under a curse of the law, doesnt mean the law exposes or reveals but what is death, which is the fulfilment of a curse.


The knowledge of sin is only by the knowledge of salvation.

The world cant have knowledge of sin as in the law all die, what sort of knowledge do you say death is, as in Adam ALL DIE..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[gordon777]

You are still skipping the order of the text. Abraham was counted righteous in Genesis 15:6: “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Isaac was offered later in Genesis 22.

That means Abraham’s obedience did not become the basis of his righteousness before God. It proved the faith he already had.

James does not say Abraham’s works replaced faith or helped purchase justification. James says his faith was “made perfect” by works ~James 2:22, meaning his faith was brought to full expression and shown to be real. Then James quotes Genesis 15:6, the very verse where Abraham was counted righteous by believing God ~James 2:23.

Hebrews says the same thing: “By faith Abraham... offered up Isaac” ~Hebrews 11:17. The work came from faith. The work did not create saving faith.

So the issue is settled by Scripture. Works prove living faith. They do not become the ground of justification. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

That is the line Scripture draws.

Abraham has to fulfil all required of him not part, without the offering of his only son on the altar, he is not called the friend of God, as James 2 confirms for when by works, faith is made perfect.

Abraham did the act of offering his only begotten son to receive him in a figure, ( of Christ) and Christ is the work of HIs own blood offered for our sins. ( this is by works faith made perfect)

 

[David]

We knew sin because of the law saying to not covet, but being under a curse of the law, doesnt mean the law exposes or reveals but what is death, which is the fulfilment of a curse.


The knowledge of sin is only by the knowledge of salvation.

The world cant have knowledge of sin as in the law all die, what sort of knowledge do you say death is, as in Adam ALL DIE..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You should have read the rules.

3. No False Gospel and No False Doctrine​

Any teaching that contradicts the biblical gospel is not permitted.

This includes:

• salvation by works
• salvation through sacraments
• righteousness through rituals
• new revelation that alters Scripture
• hidden codes
• gematria / numerology
• Hebrew letter meanings
• visions that interpret or override Scripture
• allegories not found in the Bible

If the Bible does not teach it, we do not promote it.

“We are justified by faith apart from works of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

So if you want to post on this site, stop trying to teach your false doctrine here.

 

[gordon777]

You are still skipping the order of the text. Abraham was counted righteous in Genesis 15:6: “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Isaac was offered later in Genesis 22.

That means Abraham’s obedience did not become the basis of his righteousness before God. It proved the faith he already had.

James does not say Abraham’s works replaced faith or helped purchase justification. James says his faith was “made perfect” by works ~James 2:22, meaning his faith was brought to full expression and shown to be real. Then James quotes Genesis 15:6, the very verse where Abraham was counted righteous by believing God ~James 2:23.

Hebrews says the same thing: “By faith Abraham... offered up Isaac” ~Hebrews 11:17. The work came from faith. The work did not create saving faith.

So the issue is settled by Scripture. Works prove living faith. They do not become the ground of justification. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

That is the line Scripture draws.

"So the issue is settled by Scripture. Works prove living faith. They do not become the ground of justification. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5."..

The issue as you speak of, is not the belief we are to have, in Christ instead of Isaac on the altar, this is the only reason that by works faith are made perfect, as per James 2.

As for Paul, remember what he had to go through from the start, WHAT WILL YOU HAVE ME TO DO...



Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

 

[gordon777]

You should have read the rules.

3. No False Gospel and No False Doctrine​

Any teaching that contradicts the biblical gospel is not permitted.

This includes:

• salvation by works
• salvation through sacraments
• righteousness through rituals
• new revelation that alters Scripture
• hidden codes
• gematria / numerology
• Hebrew letter meanings
• visions that interpret or override Scripture
• allegories not found in the Bible

If the Bible does not teach it, we do not promote it.

“We are justified by faith apart from works of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

So if you want to post on this site, stop trying to teach your false doctrine here.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

 

[gordon777]

Do you have anything to say about the verses I am showing for you and for everyone here David. ( about death is what the law gave only and how apostle Paul works form the start)

 

[gordon777]

Either I am a false teacher, or I cannot be shown to be as such.

If this is a forum where we can find out who is true or false, why not face up to the truth, even if it hurts as one had said here before.

 

[David]

"So the issue is settled by Scripture. Works prove living faith. They do not become the ground of justification. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5."..

The issue as you speak of, is not the belief we are to have, in Christ instead of Isaac on the altar, this is the only reason that by works faith are made perfect, as per James 2.

As for Paul, remember what he had to go through from the start, WHAT WILL YOU HAVE ME TO DO...



Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

This is exactly the circle I’m talking about. You quoted Romans 4:5 yourself, but you are not letting it say what it says: “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

That verse separates works from the ground of justification. It does not say “to him that believes and works.” It says “to him that worketh not, but believeth.”

Acts 9:6 does not change that. Paul asking, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” shows submission to Christ after being confronted by the risen Lord. It does not teach that Paul was justified by doing works. Obedience follows faith. It does not become the basis of righteousness before God.

James 2 also does not overturn Romans 4. James says Abraham’s faith was made perfect by works ~James 2:22, then points back to Genesis 15:6, where Abraham was already counted righteous by believing God. His offering of Isaac in Genesis 22 proved the faith was real. It did not become the ground of his justification.

So the issue is still the same: works prove living faith, but they do not justify the sinner before God as the foundation. Christ does.

I am not going to keep repeating the same correction every time another verse is brought in. Scripture has already drawn the line clearly: “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28.

 

[David]

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Quoting verses about Christ’s works does not answer the issue. John 15:24 and John 5:36 are about the works of Jesus bearing witness that the Father sent Him. They do not teach that sinners are justified before God by their own works.

You keep moving the discussion away from the direct issue.

The rule says teaching salvation by works is not permitted here. Scripture says, “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

Christ’s works prove who He is. Our works do not become the ground of our justification.

So this is the line: if you mean works are the fruit of real faith, that is biblical. If you mean works are part of the basis by which God justifies a sinner, that is a false gospel.

Do not dodge the question with another verse about Christ’s works. Answer the issue plainly.

 

[David]

Do you have anything to say about the verses I am showing for you and for everyone here David. ( about death is what the law gave only and how apostle Paul works form the start)

This is your final warning on this issue. You are not merely asking questions anymore. You are teaching confusion against the gospel after Scripture has already answered you plainly.

Paul did not say a sinner is justified by faith plus works. He said, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. He said, “to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

This is not hard to understand unless a man is determined to make it hard.

You keep dragging James 2 into the discussion as if James cancels Paul. He does not. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous in Genesis 15:6. Isaac was offered later in Genesis 22. That means Abraham’s obedience proved his faith. It did not become the ground of his justification before God.

You keep quoting verses about works while ignoring the order of Scripture. That is how false doctrine is built. A verse is lifted, twisted, and used against the plain teaching of other Scripture.

Works are not the foundation. Christ is. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” ~1 Corinthians 3:11.

Good works follow salvation. They do not cause it. They do not complete the ground of it. They do not make Christ’s finished work effective. If you add works to the basis of justification, you are not protecting holiness. You are corrupting grace.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6.

So I am saying this plainly:what you are teaching is a false gospel. You are muddying justification by faith and dragging sinners back toward works-righteousness. That is not biblical balance. That is error.

This site will not give room for that teaching.

Repent of it, and stop promoting it here. Scripture has the truth.

 

[David]

Either I am a false teacher, or I cannot be shown to be as such.

If this is a forum where we can find out who is true or false, why not face up to the truth, even if it hurts as one had said here before.

Then face the truth plainly. You have been shown the Scripture repeatedly. Paul says, “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. Paul says, “if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6. That is the gospel line.

So yes, you have been shown. You are a false teacher, and you have been shown to be as such.

The issue is not that nobody can prove it. The issue is that you refuse the proof given.

A false teacher is not exposed because someone dislikes him. He is exposed when his teaching contradicts the gospel. Scripture says justification is by faith apart from works. You keep pressing works into justification. That is false doctrine.

This forum is not here to give endless space to a man who keeps twisting the same passages after correction. If you want truth, submit to what Scripture says. If you want to keep pushing works into the basis of salvation, then call it what it is: another gospel.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you... let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:8.

That is not my opinion. That is what God's word says.

 

[Yesua888]

I see a "pattern" here ...

1. I read the "arguments", "debates", or call them what you will ... someone always seems to have to have the last say, or seem knowledgeable?

2. Then the First point is overwritten by another point, and another, until it becomes a mess!

3. By the second or third response the audience is LOST!

If only people could share what is important to them, and STOP the "one upmanship"

Sorry Bros, I have to point out the pattern that is so familiar : )

Blessing to Everyone reading xxx

 

[David]

I see a "pattern" here ...

1. I read the "arguments", "debates", or call them what you will ... someone always seems to have to have the last say, or seem knowledgeable?

2. Then the First point is overwritten by another point, and another, until it becomes a mess!

3. By the second or third response the audience is LOST!

If only people could share what is important to them, and STOP the "one upmanship"

Sorry Bros, I have to point out the pattern that is so familiar : )

Blessing to Everyone reading xxx

Yesua888, when you said someone always seems to have to have the last say or seem knowledgeable, that is not what this is. Sometimes these threads can feel like people are passing verses back and forth like courtroom evidence, and after a while the main issue gets buried. So let me pull the curtain back and make the issue plain.

This is not about someone needing the last word. This is not about trying to sound smarter than someone else. The Bible is God’s Word. When Scripture has spoken clearly, the faithful thing to do is not to soften it, hide it, or negotiate it. The faithful thing is to say what God has said.

If a warning light comes on in your car, you do not help the driver by putting tape over the dashboard. You help by saying, “Something is wrong. Pull over and look at it.” That is what correction from Scripture does. It does not exist to embarrass people. It exists to keep people from driving straight into danger.

Is there a fairer way to deal with false teaching than to show from the Bible what the Bible actually teaches? I do not know of one. If we stay quiet or try to smooth it over, the error keeps spreading and people stay confused. The Bible tells us to “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” ~2 Timothy 4:2. That is not about winning an argument. It is about being faithful to what God said so souls are not led astray.

I understand why the back and forth feels messy and hard to follow. It can look like people are just going in circles. But the reason these things have to be stated plainly, even when it gets direct, is because Scripture commands us to defend the truth when it is being mixed, twisted, or denied. You cannot defend what Scripture says without actually saying what Scripture says. Silence does not protect anyone. It leaves people in confusion.

Scripture is clear that we are to contend for the faith. Jude wrote, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you... that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” ~Jude 1:3. Paul told Timothy, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” ~2 Timothy 4:2. He did not say to keep the peace at the expense of truth. He said to correct error with doctrine.

Jesus Himself defended the truth by stating it plainly and correcting error. He told the Pharisees, “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you” ~Matthew 15:7. He cleared the temple because they had turned His Father’s house into a place of merchandise ~John 2:13-16. He exposed the rich young ruler’s heart, even though the man walked away sorrowful ~Matthew 19:16-22. Jesus did not soften the truth to keep people comfortable.

Paul defended the faith the same way. When some were adding law-keeping to the gospel, Paul did not look for middle ground. He wrote, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you... let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:8. He confronted Peter openly when Peter’s conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel ~Galatians 2:11-14. He said, “If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” ~Galatians 2:21. Paul did not stay quiet to avoid conflict. He stated the gospel clearly because adding anything to Christ’s finished work corrupts it.

The disciples did the same. When the rulers commanded them to stop speaking in the name of Jesus, Peter and John answered, “Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard” ~Acts 4:19-20. They kept preaching even after being beaten ~Acts 5:40-42. They did not choose silence for the sake of peace. They obeyed God.

The truths of the Bible cannot be defended by staying silent or by trying to smooth everything over. Error spreads when truth is not stated. That is why correction in these threads has to be clear. The issue is not personal dislike. The issue is whether we will let Scripture say what it says about how a sinner is counted righteous before God.

When someone begins to mix works into that counting, Scripture gives us no room to agree with it. The Bible says salvation is “by grace... through faith... not of works” ~Ephesians 2:8-9. It says “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” ~Romans 3:28. It says “to him that worketh not, but believeth... his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.

Yesua888, the back and forth is not the goal. The goal is clarity so no one is left thinking the gospel is Christ plus something we do. That is why the truth has to be stated plainly. Scripture commands it, Jesus did it, Paul did it, and the disciples did it. We follow their example because the truth is not ours to negotiate. It is important to tell people when they are teaching a false gospel because souls are at stake. This is not about winning a debate, protecting pride, or having the last word.

 

[bobinfaith]

Either I am a false teacher, or I cannot be shown to be as such.

If this is a forum where we can find out who is true or false, why not face up to the truth, even if it hurts as one had said here before.

Hello gordon777;

I don't know if you're a false teacher or whether you can be shown to be as such. I don't know you, you brought it up, therefore, that's on you.

In the New Testament Jesus teaches us several times, "those who have ears to hear"

After reading, re-reading and listening to your multiple posts in this topic, there is something in your disposition. I feel you have something heavy on your heart that you want to say, that goes beyond this discussion of It's Just the Truth.

gordon777, you just joined yesterday as a new member. Usually the first time meeting in a Christian community is always good for getting to know one another, at first.

God bless you, gordon777, and your entire family.

Bob