Faith and works

faither22

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I guess its a question of what comes first? Faith or works.

I think everyone would agree that faith includes work and effort, but just not in addition to the finished and completed work of Christ in His life, death, and resurrection.

I researched pistis, where we get our English word faith. Then researched the corresponding verb pisteuo, which is defined as "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines)

If we respond to the call of the Father with "pisteuo" "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," is that the correct beginning to a relationship with Christ? with His response to our response encouraging additional acts of pisteuo?

thanks
 
Good morning, faither22;

It's good to see you again. Faith is essential and first step in establishing our surrender and relationship to Jesus Christ. When we dissect faith, works and effort are parts of the whole but true Works cannot establish our true calling until Faith is set in place.

Pistis (noun) and / or Pisteuo (verb) is a complete surrender to Jesus starting with our faith.

Your opening thread is a good start but it's imperative you keep it "at a surface" or "one step at a time" by slowly teaching (from your writing) to those of us who aren't familiar with these terms.

I don't mean to sound brutally direct but I feel with this approach we can all learn and form our personal application.

God bless you, brother, your family and ministry.

Bob
 
Lol , great minds think alike, i sent you a PM just as you posted this.
 
Last edited:
Good morning, faither22;

It's good to see you again. Faith is essential and first step in establishing our surrender and relationship to Jesus Christ. When we dissect faith, works and effort are parts of the whole but true Works cannot establish our true calling until Faith is set in place.

Pistis (noun) and / or Pisteuo (verb) is a complete surrender to Jesus starting with our faith.

Your opening thread is a good start but it's imperative you keep it "at a surface" or "one step at a time" by slowly teaching (from your writing) to those of us who aren't familiar with these terms.

I don't mean to sound brutally direct but I feel with this approach we can all learn and form our personal application.

God bless you, brother, your family and ministry.

Bob
Understood, my wife tells me that all the time.

Are their some active members here?
 
Here is some facts about Faith and faithing.

I say faith and faithing , because the Greek language has the noun, pistis, and the corresponding verb, pisteuo.

The English language translates pistis the noun as Faith . But the English doesn't have a corresponding verb to our noun Faith like the Greek does. So as you may guess, the translators needed to choose a word to translate pisteuo. Pistis is used 245 times in the NT, and pisteuo is used an additional 248 times in the NT.

The words the translators chose to translate pisteuo are the words believe, believer, and believing. Not that the translators had much of a choice, but the choice of those words were at best a bad translation, possibly even a mistranslation. The Greek doesn't have the words believe, believer, and believing in the Greek language.

The words the English should have had for the translators are Faithe, faither, and faithing. But since they didn't , it's up to us to make sure we are getting the exact intent communicated by the original texts.

That's my intent here.
 
I guess its a question of what comes first? Faith or works.

I think everyone would agree that faith includes work and effort, but just not in addition to the finished and completed work of Christ in His life, death, and resurrection.

I researched pistis, where we get our English word faith. Then researched the corresponding verb pisteuo, which is defined as "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines)

If we respond to the call of the Father with "pisteuo" "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," is that the correct beginning to a relationship with Christ? with His response to our response encouraging additional acts of pisteuo?
Faith first, works afterwards. Scripture NEVER says works first. “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith shall be counted for righteousness.” ~Romans 4:5. Faith is not intellectual assent, but surrender comes after being justified, obedience comes after being justified. It does not flow INTO your justification. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him.” ~Colossians 2:6. We RECEIVE Him by faith alone. We walk AFTERWARD.
 
Here is some facts about Faith and faithing.

I say faith and faithing , because the Greek language has the noun, pistis, and the corresponding verb, pisteuo.

The English language translates pistis the noun as Faith . But the English doesn't have a corresponding verb to our noun Faith like the Greek does. So as you may guess, the translators needed to choose a word to translate pisteuo. Pistis is used 245 times in the NT, and pisteuo is used an additional 248 times in the NT.

The words the translators chose to translate pisteuo are the words believe, believer, and believing. Not that the translators had much of a choice, but the choice of those words were at best a bad translation, possibly even a mistranslation. The Greek doesn't have the words believe, believer, and believing in the Greek language.

The words the English should have had for the translators are Faithe, faither, and faithing. But since they didn't , it's up to us to make sure we are getting the exact intent communicated by the original texts.

That's my intent here.
Scripture plainly teaches that faith is living trust, not mere agreement. In fact, the Bible uses pistis and pisteuō interchangeably to emphasize that belief is holistic. However, Scripture ALSO defines "believe" by context. Scripture never coins new English words to tell us what believing means. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” ~Acts 16: 31, “to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith shall be counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. One is made justified at the moment of believing, prior to works.

Scripture is not confused on this. We RECEIVE Christ by faith, and then we WALK in Him. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ~Colossians 2:6. Authentic faith will express itself in action and growth, but Scripture never places that action in the cause-and-effect of justification. Faith alone saves. Obedience flows from that saving faith
 
Scripture plainly teaches that faith is living trust, not mere agreement. In fact, the Bible uses pistis and pisteuō interchangeably to emphasize that belief is holistic. However, Scripture ALSO defines "believe" by context. Scripture never coins new English words to tell us what believing means. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” ~Acts 16: 31, “to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith shall be counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. One is made justified at the moment of believing, prior to works.

Scripture is not confused on this. We RECEIVE Christ by faith, and then we WALK in Him. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ~Colossians 2:6. Authentic faith will express itself in action and growth, but Scripture never places that action in the cause-and-effect of justification. Faith alone saves. Obedience flows from that saving faith

Hi David,

Would it be ok to ask you a question or two?
Just see if we're on the same page?

My question is,
nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So when that happens, we turn towards the direction of the caller ( act of repentance), what does the first act of pisteuo ( act of faithing) look like IYU? What is the correct response to the call of the Father?
 
Hi David,

Would it be ok to ask you a question or two?
Just see if we're on the same page?

My question is,
nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So when that happens, we turn towards the direction of the caller ( act of repentance), what does the first act of pisteuo ( act of faithing) look like IYU? What is the correct response to the call of the Father?
Hi faither22,
do you have a verse or two that addresses "nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them"?
 
Hi David,

Would it be ok to ask you a question or two?
Just see if we're on the same page?

My question is,
nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So when that happens, we turn towards the direction of the caller ( act of repentance), what does the first act of pisteuo ( act of faithing) look like IYU? What is the correct response to the call of the Father?
No, we are not on the same page. Straight answer, you seem to be trying to insert a pre-faith response that functions like a qualifying act. It is subtle, but it matters. When God calls, He is not asking for movement, effort, or moral cleanup. He is commanding belief. Jesus does not say, “This is the work of man.” He says, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” ~John 6:29. The first response to the Father’s drawing is not behavior. It is faith in the Son.

The sinner’s problem is not a lack of repentance rituals. It is unbelief. That is why Jesus says, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life” ~John 5:24. Not will have. Hath. Life is given at the moment of believing. That belief is the turning. That trust is the repentance. Scripture never separates coming to Christ from believing Christ.

People muddy this by trying to insert a preparatory act. Scripture shuts that down. “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. God justifies the ungodly, not the reformed. If the first act is anything other than believing, grace is no longer grace ~Romans 11:6.

The conscience question is this. Are you trusting Christ alone, or are you trusting your response to the call? One saves. The other condemns. Jesus said it plainly, “Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep” ~John 10:26. The dividing line is belief, not effort.

Scripture is settled. The Father draws. The sinner believes. God justifies. Then the walk begins. Anything else is a counterfeit doorway that Scripture never builds.

So to be clear, what you are saying is not biblical repentance being taught carefully. It is a theological system imposing an order Scripture does not give. The Bible keeps it simple. The Father draws. The sinner believes the Son. God justifies. Then repentance and obedience show up in the life that follows. Anything else is imported, not revealed.
 
Sure, John 6:44.

Where Jesus says nobody can come to me unless the Father calls them.

John 6:44 says the Father draws, not that He issues a selective call that replaces or precedes believing. Jesus explains His own words. “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me” ~John 6:45. The drawing happens through hearing and learning what God has revealed. It is not a separate inward act that qualifies someone before faith.

If “draw” meant an effectual call that guarantees coming, then Jesus would contradict Himself when He says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” ~John 12:32. Same word. Same action. Scripture cannot mean selective in one place and universal in another. The difference is not the drawing. It is the response.

Jesus keeps the issue where Scripture keeps it. Belief. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Paul agrees. God justifies “him that worketh not, but believeth” ~Romans 4:5. No preparatory repentance act. No qualifying response. No reordered sequence.

So let’s stay with what is written. God draws through truth. Man is responsible to believe that truth. God saves the believer. When we turn “draw” into “call” and then build a system on it, we are no longer explaining Scripture. We are importing ideas Scripture itself never states.
 
John 6:44 says the Father draws, not that He issues a selective call that replaces or precedes believing. Jesus explains His own words. “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me” ~John 6:45. The drawing happens through hearing and learning what God has revealed. IMt is not a separate inward act that qualifies someone before faith.

If “draw” meant an effectual call that guarantees coming, then Jesus would contradict Himself when He says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” ~John 12:32. Same word. Same action. Scripture cannot mean selective in one place and universal in another. The difference is not the drawing. It is the response.

Jesus keeps the issue where Scripture keeps it. Belief. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Paul agrees. God justifies “him that worketh not, but believeth” ~Romans 4:5. No preparatory repentance act. No qualifying response. No reordered sequence.

So let’s stay with what is written. God draws through truth. Man is responsible to believe that truth. God saves the believer. When we turn “draw” into “call” and then build a system on it, we are no longer explaining Scripture. We are importing ideas Scripture itself never states.

Out of respect for you and your site, I won't take this any further.

I'll just say one thing that you may or may not look into. The words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations. Your standing on the scriptures written in English, not in the Greek. I could spend days and weeks trying to persuade you, but I'm sensing it would only make you dig in harder.

I know how much you have invested in those words, I just hope your heart is still teachable. Even if it's something that should have been brought to your attention in the first day of Bible college.

May God bless you and your efforts here.
 
I'll keep an eye out to see if your just having a bad day or something, it happens to all of us.

Let me know if you"de like me to continue posting here.

Thanks jay
 
I could spend days and weeks trying to persuade you, but I'm sensing it would only make you dig in harder.

I know how much you have invested in those words, I just hope your heart is still teachable. Even if it's something that should have been brought to your attention in the first day of Bible college.
You say you could spend days and weeks persuading me, but instead of answering Scripture, you retreat. That is not persuasion. That is avoidance. When teaching contradicts the plain words of Scripture, it will not be promoted here. Error must be tested by the Word of God, not protected by claims of special insight.

You question whether my heart is teachable. Teachability is not measured by openness to new theories, but by submission to what is written. Scripture is clear on belief, faith, and salvation, and no appeal to private definitions or academic authority overturns what God has plainly said ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Appealing to secret Greek knowledge while refusing to engage the text is not humility. It is evasion. If “believe” were truly a mistranslation, then the Holy Spirit repeatedly failed to say what He meant, because Scripture ties eternal life to believing again and again without apology. Jesus did not hedge His words. He said plainly, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. John wrote so that men might believe and have life ~John 20:31. Paul declared that God justifies the one who does not work but believes ~Romans 4:5. If believing is the wrong word, then the gospel itself is unintelligible.

Greek does not rescue unbelief from responsibility. πιστεύω is a verb. It calls for trust, reliance, commitment. But it never replaces faith with a hidden act God performs before faith. Jesus settles the matter Himself when He defines the Father’s drawing as hearing and learning the truth ~John 6:45. Truth confronts. Man responds. God saves the believer. That is the order Scripture gives, not a system built afterward.

Invoking Bible college or implying superior insight without submitting it to Scripture is not teachability. Teachability bows to what is written. God has spoken clearly enough that fishermen preached it and sinners understood it. The problem is never that Scripture is unclear. The problem is that fallen man resists its plain demand. “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” ~John 5:40.

This is not about English versus Greek. It is about whether we will let God mean what He says. Faith is not a mystical qualification granted to a select few. It is the God-commanded response to revealed truth. “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ~Mark 1:15. Anything that moves salvation away from that call is not deeper understanding. It is a different gospel in academic clothing.
 
I'll keep an eye out to see if your just having a bad day or something, it happens to all of us.

Let me know if you"de like me to continue posting here.
I’m not having a bad day. I’m guarding doctrine. Scripture commands that false teaching be corrected, not accommodated ~Titus 1:9, ~Acts 20:28–30. This forum exists to test what is said by the Word of God, not by tone, credentials, or private insight.

Whether you continue posting here is a matter of whether what you teach can stand when examined by Scripture. ‘To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them’ ~Isaiah 8:20.

So the issue is settled right there. Engage Scripture directly, or refrain. This is not about feelings. It is about truth.”

That keeps authority where it belongs. Not with you. With the Word of God.

If you wish to participate here, understand this clearly. Scripture is the authority, not private definitions, academic credentials, or personal theories. Teaching that twists the plain meaning of God’s Word will be corrected and will not be allowed to stand. We are commanded to handle the Word of God honestly, not deceitfully ~2 Corinthians 4:2, and to refuse doctrines that go beyond what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

This forum exists for the proclamation and defense of biblical truth, not the promotion of false doctrine. Engage the text faithfully, or do not engage at all. That is the standard.
 
Sure, John 6:44.

Where Jesus says nobody can come to me unless the Father calls them.
Thank You,
That is a "new" verse to my ears/eyes : )
" Divine Initiative: God the Father actively draws individuals to Jesus through His sovereign grace. This drawing is not merely an invitation but a transformative work of the Holy Spirit that removes spiritual blindness and hardens hearts (Ephesians 1:18; 2:1)."
It raises a question for me of why are only some of us "drawn" and others not?
 
It raises a question for me of why are only some of us "drawn" and others not?
Jesus tells us, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” ~John 6:44. That seems pretty intense until you hear Jesus explain what He meant. Two verses later Jesus states, “They shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me” ~John 6:45. Drawing closer to God isn’t God dragging us by our spiritual necks. It’s God teaching us, revealing truth to us, shining His light on us, and then calling for a response.

Think of it like radio signals. The message gets broadcast out, but only those who have the receiver turned on and tuned in can hear the message. God is broadcasting truth. The issue isn’t that God isn’t speaking, the issue is that people don’t want to hear what He is saying. Jesus even clearly told them this, “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” ~John 5:40. No one is prevented by God from coming to Christ. No, people don’t come to God because they don’t want to.

The Bible never says that God draws people to Himself and purposely omits others. In fact, it’s complete opposite. “God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” ~1 Timothy 2:4. Jesus Himself says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” ~John 12:32. The offer is there for all to receive. The difference is what people do when the light shines in their eyes.

So why do some come to God, and others run from Him? Jesus even explains that. “Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil” ~John 3:19. Some listen to the message and humble themselves under the teachings of Christ. Others hear and harden their hearts against God. As Stephen told the Jewish crowd, “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost” ~Acts 7:51. Resistance only happens when you can resist.

John 6 isn’t about God choosing who to save and who to ignore. It’s about God revealing truth to all, and man’s heart being exposed in that light. Those who hear the truth, learn from it, and believe are drawn to Christ. Those who reject Him and his call to follow Him remain in their unbelief. The Father draws man to Himself through truth. The Son saves those who place their faith in Him. And each man is responsible for how they react to the Light of God’s truth.
 
A few more : )
John 6:44
states: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:65 reinforces this: "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:45 adds: "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
John 12:32 reveals the method: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." This refers to Jesus’ crucifixion as the means of drawing people.
Acts 16:14 provides a biblical example: "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to the things spoken by Paul," illustrating the Father’s drawing through the Holy Spirit.
John 17:6 affirms: "I have given them the words You gave Me, and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."
Romans 8:28–30 outlines the broader divine plan: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined... and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:4–5 states: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
 
Good morning, faither22;

It's good to see you again. Faith is essential and first step in establishing our surrender and relationship to Jesus Christ. When we dissect faith, works and effort are parts of the whole but true Works cannot establish our true calling until Faith is set in place.

Pistis (noun) and / or Pisteuo (verb) is a complete surrender to Jesus starting with our faith.

Your opening thread is a good start but it's imperative you keep it "at a surface" or "one step at a time" by slowly teaching (from your writing) to those of us who aren't familiar with these terms.

I don't mean to sound brutally direct but I feel with this approach we can all learn and form our personal application.

God bless you, brother, your family and ministry.

Bob
OK Bob,
Lets start at the very beginning.

In the Greek language there are two main words for Faith, "pistis" translated into the English as the word "faith". And "pisteuo" translated into the English as believe, believer, and believing.

Are we in agreement with that. Is this a biblical truth?
 
OK Bob,
Lets start at the very beginning. In the Greek language there are two main words for Faith, "pistis" translated into the English as the word "faith". And "pisteuo" translated into the English as believe, believer, and believing. Are we in agreement with that. Is this a biblical truth?

Hello faither22;

From the get go, I didn't feel any of us were not in agreement from the beginning, just some additional teaching points of Pistis and Pisteuo.

Yes, I believe everyone in this thread understands the indepth meanings and have posted beyond the two main Greek words. Deeper study are further examples throughout the Bible.

In Acts 27:25, 25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me. - NKJV

Paul teaches that our faith in God - "I believe God" will deliver us.

In John 3:16,
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. - NASB

Jesus teaches "Believes in" means much more than intellectual statements, awareness or agreement. It means to trust in, to rely on, and to cling to.

In Hebrews 11:6, 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
- ESV

The Author teaches one must believe that He is, or exists.

In Galatian 5:22-23, 2 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.
- RSV

Paul teaches the fruit of the Spirit, translated faith or faithfulness, has one work to do in all of us.

One more. Ephesians 2:8-9,
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. - HCSB

Paul teaches but by grace through faith, (pistis) this is God's gift.

These examples are not "poetic or romantic passages" but serious verses that require deeper study. The KEY, is are we applying them all in our daily walk with Christ?

God bless you, faither22.

Bob
 
Hello faither22;

From the get go, I didn't feel any of us were not in agreement from the beginning, just some additional teaching points of Pistis and Pisteuo.

Yes, I believe everyone in this thread understands the indepth meanings and have posted beyond the two main Greek words. Deeper study are further examples throughout the Bible.

In Acts 27:25, 25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me. - NKJV

Paul teaches that our faith in God - "I believe God" will deliver us.

In John 3:16,
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. - NASB

Jesus teaches "Believes in" means much more than intellectual statements, awareness or agreement. It means to trust in, to rely on, and to cling to.

In Hebrews 11:6, 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
- ESV

The Author teaches one must believe that He is, or exists.

In Galatian 5:22-23, 2 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.
- RSV

Paul teaches the fruit of the Spirit, translated faith or faithfulness, has one work to do in all of us.

One more. Ephesians 2:8-9,
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. - HCSB

Paul teaches but by grace through faith, (pistis) this is God's gift.

These examples are not "poetic or romantic passages" but serious verses that require deeper study. The KEY, is are we applying them all in our daily walk with Christ?

God bless you, faither22.

Bob

So you have no problem with the word "believe" ?

John 3:16, "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever "believes" in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

Your good with Jn.3:16, just as it reads? That if I simply "believe" in Him, I will receive His spirit?
 
So you have no problem with the word "believe" ? John 3:16, "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever "believes" in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
Your good with Jn.3:16, just as it reads? That if I simply "believe" in Him, I will receive His spirit?

The word believe is a staple in our foundational faith in God.

The moment any of us received Christ in our lives we received the Holy Spirit.

God bless you, brother.

Bob
 
In the Greek language there are two main words for Faith, "pistis" translated into the English as the word "faith". And "pisteuo" translated into the English as believe, believer, and believing.

Are we in agreement with that. Is this a biblical truth?
I asked you not to do this, and you did it again. You are not opening Scripture. You are reopening a framework that places language theory above the plain teaching of God’s Word.

The Bible does not present salvation as a linguistic puzzle that must be solved before a sinner can be saved. It presents salvation as a command and a promise. “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ~Mark 1:15. Jesus did not say, “Reconstruct the Greek.” He said, “Believe.”

You keep implying that the English words believe, believer, and believing are insufficient or misleading. Scripture itself contradicts that claim. “These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” ~John 20:31. If believing were a mistranslation, then the stated purpose of Scripture would collapse. God does not build His gospel on broken words.

You are also quietly shifting the order of salvation. You speak of responses, movements, acts, and beginnings that occur before justification. Scripture shuts that door. “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. God justifies the ungodly, not the prepared, not the responsive, not the surrendered. Belief is the dividing line.

Jesus defines the issue plainly. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Not after a process. Not after clarification. Not after surrender language is refined. Hath. Present possession. Given at the moment of believing.

Appealing to Greek to undermine what Scripture repeatedly affirms is not depth. It is evasion. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” ~2 Timothy 3:7. When teaching cannot live comfortably with the plain words of Scripture, it is the teaching that must go, not the text.

This forum is governed by what is written. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. Scripture does not need correction. It demands submission.

So hear this plainly. Salvation is not found in redefining belief. It is found in believing Christ. Anything that moves the sinner’s confidence away from the Son and toward their own response is not clarity. It is another gospel. And Scripture gives no room for it ~Galatians 1:8.

That is the line. That line will not move.

Know the Bible
 
OK Bob,
Lets start at the very beginning.

In the Greek language there are two main words for Faith, "pistis" translated into the English as the word "faith". And "pisteuo" translated into the English as believe, believer, and believing.

Are we in agreement with that. Is this a biblical truth?
Hi faither 22,
I feel as though I am butting in here, but I am now curious as to where this is all leading.
This is what I found online:
"
The Greek word pistis (πίστις), meaning "faith," "belief," "trust," or "fidelity," appears approximately 243 times throughout the New Testament. It is most frequently used in the letters of Paul (e.g., Romans, Ephesians, Galatians) and in the Gospels, Acts, and the book of Hebrews.

Key Books Where​

  1. Romans: 35 occurrences (e.g., Romans 1:17: "The righteous shall live by faith.")
  2. Hebrews: 31 occurrences (e.g., Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for...")
  3. Galatians: 20 occurrences (e.g., Galatians 5:22: "faith is a fruit of the Spirit.")
  4. Ephesians: 8 occurrences (e.g., Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith...")
  5. Acts: 14 occurrences (e.g., Acts 14:22: "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.")
  6. Matthew: 8 occurrences (e.g., Matthew 8:10: "I have not found such great faith in Israel.") "
And

"The Greek word pistis (πίστις), meaning "faith," "belief," "trust," or "fidelity," appears approximately 243 times throughout the New Testament. It is most frequently used in the letters of Paul (e.g., Romans, Ephesians, Galatians) and in the Gospels, Acts, and the book of Hebrews.

Key Books Where​

  • Romans: 35 occurrences (e.g., Romans 1:17: "The righteous shall live by faith.")
  • Hebrews: 31 occurrences (e.g., Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for...")
  • Galatians: 20 occurrences (e.g., Galatians 5:22: "faith is a fruit of the Spirit.")
  • Ephesians: 8 occurrences (e.g., Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith...")
  • Acts: 14 occurrences (e.g., Acts 14:22: "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.")
  • Matthew: 8 occurrences (e.g., Matthew 8:10: "I have not found such great faith in Israel.") "

Perhaps as you are starting from scratch, you could re-iterate what the lesson is about?

I am here to learn : )

Thanks Linda
 
I asked you not to do this, and you did it again. You are not opening Scripture. You are reopening a framework that places language theory above the plain teaching of God’s Word.

The Bible does not present salvation as a linguistic puzzle that must be solved before a sinner can be saved. It presents salvation as a command and a promise. “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ~Mark 1:15. Jesus did not say, “Reconstruct the Greek.” He said, “Believe.”

You keep implying that the English words believe, believer, and believing are insufficient or misleading. Scripture itself contradicts that claim. “These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” ~John 20:31. If believing were a mistranslation, then the stated purpose of Scripture would collapse. God does not build His gospel on broken words.

You are also quietly shifting the order of salvation. You speak of responses, movements, acts, and beginnings that occur before justification. Scripture shuts that door. “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. God justifies the ungodly, not the prepared, not the responsive, not the surrendered. Belief is the dividing line.

Jesus defines the issue plainly. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Not after a process. Not after clarification. Not after surrender language is refined. Hath. Present possession. Given at the moment of believing.

Appealing to Greek to undermine what Scripture repeatedly affirms is not depth. It is evasion. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” ~2 Timothy 3:7. When teaching cannot live comfortably with the plain words of Scripture, it is the teaching that must go, not the text.

This forum is governed by what is written. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. Scripture does not need correction. It demands submission.

So hear this plainly. Salvation is not found in redefining belief. It is found in believing Christ. Anything that moves the sinner’s confidence away from the Son and toward their own response is not clarity. It is another gospel. And Scripture gives no room for it ~Galatians 1:8.

That is the line. That line will not move.

Know the Bible
Sorry David,
I did not see this post when I was writing my response to faither22 ... he told Bob that he is willing to start all over again, and I am curious to see what the lesson is actually about. In other words, if faither22 is able to have a second go at what he is trying to portray?
Thanks Linda
 
Sorry David,
I did not see this post when I was writing my response to faither22 ... he told Bob that he is willing to start all over again, and I am curious to see what the lesson is actually about. In other words, if faither22 is able to have a second go at what he is trying to portray?
Thanks Linda
NO, what he is teaching is false teaching, and it will not be tolerated on this forum. If you want to know what read what I have posted to him.
 
NO, what he is teaching is false teaching, and it will not be tolerated on this forum. If you want to know what read what I have posted to him.
Hi David,
I must say that I still could not figure out what the initial "question, lesson or argument" was?
All I could make out was the word "belief" and the two Greek words for this, yet did not get a real sense of the "intension" of the author.
There was a lot of tooing and fro-ing, and I was curious to find out what exactly faither22 was asking, saying, or arguing about; til all : )
Anyway, not to worry, I'm happy to butt out : )
Linda
 
Last edited:
I must say that I still could not figure out what the initial "question, lesson or argument" was?
All I could make out was the word "belief" and the two Greek words for this, yet did not get a real sense of the "intension" of the author.
There was a lot of tooing and fro-ing, and I was curious to find out what exactly faither22 was asking, saying, or arguing about; til all : )
Anyway, not to worry, I'm happy to butt out : )
Linda, please don’t butt out. Your questions are fair, and they matter. The confusion you felt happened because the issue was never stated plainly, and you were right to ask what the actual argument was.

This forum exists so people can ask honest questions and receive clear, biblical answers. You weren’t missing something. You were recognizing that the discussion kept circling language instead of clearly stating a position. That is why I stepped in and drew a firm line from Scripture.

Your questions actually helped expose the real issue. So stay engaged and keep asking. That is how clarity comes, and that is how we keep the discussion anchored in what the Bible actually says.

The core problem is simple. Faither22 is trying to add works to salvation, even if he does it subtly and through Greek language arguments. He keeps pushing the idea that salvation begins with a response, an action, a movement, or a form of surrender before a person is justified. That is not what the Bible teaches.

Scripture is clear. A sinner is justified by faith alone, not by works, not by effort, and not by any preparatory act. God says, “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. God justifies the ungodly, not the responsive, not the surrendered, and not the prepared.

Faither22 attempts to redefine “believe” by appealing to Greek in order to turn faith itself into a kind of work. The Bible never does that. Jesus speaks plainly when He says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Life is given at the moment of believing, not after a process.

Works, obedience, and repentance lived out come after salvation, not before it and not as part of earning it. Scripture says, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ~Colossians 2:6. We receive Christ by faith. We walk afterward.

So the issue in the thread really is this simple. Faither22 is moving salvation away from Christ alone and toward human response. Scripture forbids that. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works ~Ephesians 2:8–9. That is why his teaching was corrected and stopped.
 

Why the Human Heart Keeps Adding Works to Salvation​


Here is the truth most people do not want to hear. Adding works to salvation is not a Bible problem. It is a heart problem. Grace offends the flesh because grace leaves no room for self-credit. That is why Paul asks the question nobody wants to answer, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded… by the law of faith” ~Romans 3:27. Faith shuts mouths. Grace empties hands. And fallen man does not like standing before God with nothing to offer.

The flesh wants something to do. It wants a role to play. It wants a lever to pull so it can say, “I helped get myself here.” That is why people keep trying to turn faith into an action, a process, or a qualifying response. It sounds spiritual. It feels responsible. But Paul calls it foolishness. “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” ~Galatians 3:3. When works creep back in, the flesh is trying to take control of what only grace can accomplish.

There is also fear underneath it. Faith alone sounds too free. Too risky. Too easy. But Scripture does not apologize for grace. It draws a hard line. “If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6. God does not mix grace with effort. The moment works enter the room, grace walks out the door.

Some people add works because it gives them leverage. If salvation depends on my surrender, my response, or my effort, then I have something to point to. Faith alone destroys that illusion. Faith rests the whole weight of salvation on Christ, not on how well I reacted to Him. That is why Jesus keeps the issue razor sharp. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Not after a process. Not after proving sincerity. Hath. Right now.

This struggle is not new. Paul dealt with it head-on when he wrote that God justifies “him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly” ~Romans 4:5. Jesus confronted it when people asked what they must do, and He answered, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” ~John 6:29. The problem was never lack of information. Jesus said it plainly. “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” ~John 5:40. That is not confusion. That is resistance.

Jesus exposed the same heart in religious people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous ~Luke 18:9. He contrasted them with a man who brought nothing but mercy-begging repentance and went home justified ~Luke 18:14. God justified the man with empty hands, not the one with a résumé.

Scripture also shows that organized religion often becomes the breeding ground for this error. The Judaizers insisted faith in Christ was not enough without adding law. Paul called it a yoke and warned that adding law to grace causes people to fall from grace ~Acts 15:5, ~Acts 15:10, ~Galatians 5:4. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for the same spirit, telling them their self-made righteousness shut the kingdom to others ~Matthew 23:13.

Paul warned that this would continue inside professing Christianity. Some would have zeal without truth, seeking to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s ~Romans 10:2–3. Others would preach another gospel by adding what God never required ~Galatians 1:6–9. The packaging may change. The heart does not.

So when people try to add works to salvation, whether through law-keeping, surrender formulas, inner qualifying experiences, or even clever Greek arguments, Scripture has already answered them. This is not an academic issue. It is a spiritual one. The flesh wants credit. God gives none.

The Word of God settles it without hesitation. “By grace are ye saved through faith… not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:8–9. Salvation belongs to the Lord ~Jonah 2:9. God will not share His glory with another ~Isaiah 42:8. And the gospel shuts down every attempt to try.
 
Why not just let this teaching go? Because it is absolutely a salvation issue. Scripture treats it that way.

This is not a side disagreement, a maturity issue, or a difference of emphasis. When works are added to salvation, the gospel itself is altered. Paul does not treat that lightly. He calls it another gospel, which is no gospel at all. “Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:8. That is salvation language. Eternal stakes.

Scripture is clear on why this is so serious. The moment works are added, grace is destroyed. “If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6. There is no middle ground. You cannot blend Christ’s finished work with human contribution and still have biblical salvation.

Paul tells the Galatians plainly that adding law or effort does not improve salvation. It severs people from Christ. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace” ~Galatians 5:4. That is not about rewards or growth. That is about being cut off from Christ as the basis of justification.

Jesus Himself frames it as a salvation issue. He says eternal life belongs to the one who believes, not the one who performs. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” ~John 3:36. Not after a process. Not after surrender is proven. Hath. Present possession. When something is added before that moment, salvation is no longer resting on Christ alone.

This is why Scripture keeps drawing the line so sharply. God justifies “him that worketh not, but believeth” ~Romans 4:5. If works are required in any form before justification, then God is no longer justifying the ungodly. He is justifying the qualified. That is a different gospel.

So yes, this is a salvation issue because it determines what someone is trusting. Either a sinner is trusting Christ alone, or they are trusting Christ plus their response. One saves. The other condemns. “Salvation is of the Lord” ~Jonah 2:9. God will not share His glory, credit, or saving power with another ~Isaiah 42:8.

That is why this cannot be treated as a harmless theological variation. Scripture does not treat it that way. The gospel is either grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, or it is no gospel at all.
 
It would have been good to hear in a "nutshell" what the "argument, lesson or question" was in the first instance.
I think there has been so much information, that my head is spinning and I cannot see the trees for the forest (of information and or lack thereof).
Thanks everyone for all your input, and I am truly sorry that I am lagging so far behind, and that I seem to have missed the punch lines, or not been able to join the dots.
No need to try to explain anymore to me, because I am not able to absorb what has been said or not said.
Blessings : )
 
I think there has been so much information, that my head is spinning and I cannot see the trees for the forest (of information and or lack thereof). Thanks everyone for all your input, and I am truly sorry that I am lagging so far behind,

Hello Linda;

Aside from other Bible studies, Sunday schools and BTF, I also attend a Bible study on Thursday mornings. Those in attendance for the last 20 years are in their 70s, 80s and the eldest just turned 91. I'm the youngest one at 68 and will be 69 on the 30th this month.

It's during these Thursday mornings I can find myself lagging because of their life experience with Jesus. It's an opportunity to ask questions and listen as they share the Gospel and their testimonies. It's sort of an anchor for me and for that I'm grateful.

God bless you, Linda.

Bob
 
Hello Linda;

Aside from other Bible studies, Sunday schools and BTF, I also attend a Bible study on Thursday mornings. Those in attendance for the last 20 years are in their 70s, 80s and the eldest just turned 91. I'm the youngest one at 68 and will be 69 on the 30th this month.

It's during these Thursday mornings I can find myself lagging because of their life experience with Jesus. It's an opportunity to ask questions and listen as they share the Gospel and their testimonies. It's sort of an anchor for me and for that I'm grateful.

God bless you, Linda.

Bob
Sounds interesting Bob : ) xxx
 
OK Bob,
Lets start at the very beginning.

In the Greek language there are two main words for Faith, "pistis" translated into the English as the word "faith". And "pisteuo" translated into the English as believe, believer, and believing.

Are we in agreement with that. Is this a biblical truth?
Greetings faither22,

I find this verse that speaks of faith and belief where text says, there is no distinction.
The word "distinction" with Strong#G1293, in Greek "διαστολή diastolē" two Bible Lexicon defined it as means - difference.

To conclude based on the definition, "faith and believe," as the text said "no difference."
Hope this serves some kind of help.

(NAS95) Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

(NAS95+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2
faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(
Greek NT Westcott & Hort+) Rom 3:22 δικαιοσυνηG1343 N-NSF δεG1161 CONJ θεουG2316 N-GSM διαG1223 PREP πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF | [ιησου]G2424 N-GSM | ιησουG2424 N-GSM | χριστουG5547 N-GSM ειςG1519 PREP πανταςG3956 A-APM τουςG3588 T-APM πιστευονταςG4100 V-PAP-APM ουG3756 PRT-N γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S διαστοληG1293 N-NSF

G1293 (Mounce Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
3x: distinction, difference, Rom_3:22; Rom_10:12; 1Co_14:7.

G1293 (Thayer Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
1) a distinction, difference
1a) of the different sounds musical instruments make
 
Greetings faither22,

I find this verse that speaks of faith and belief where text says, there is no distinction.
The word "distinction" with Strong#G1293, in Greek "διαστολή diastolē" two Bible Lexicon defined it as means - difference.

To conclude based on the definition, "faith and believe," as the text said "no difference."
Hope this serves some kind of help.

(NAS95) Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

(NAS95+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(Greek NT Westcott & Hort+) Rom 3:22 δικαιοσυνηG1343 N-NSF δεG1161 CONJ θεουG2316 N-GSM διαG1223 PREP πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF | [ιησου]G2424 N-GSM | ιησουG2424 N-GSM | χριστουG5547 N-GSM ειςG1519 PREP πανταςG3956 A-APM τουςG3588 T-APM πιστευονταςG4100 V-PAP-APM ουG3756 PRT-N γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S διαστοληG1293 N-NSF

G1293 (Mounce Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
3x: distinction, difference, Rom_3:22; Rom_10:12; 1Co_14:7.

G1293 (Thayer Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
1) a distinction, difference
1a) of the different sounds musical instruments make
What version of the Bible, sites all these codes eg G4100 and G4102?
 
What version of the Bible, sites all these codes eg G4100 and G4102?
Greetings Yesua888,

Sorry, I fail to post what Greek word were those codes. Those are Strong Numbers for "faith" and "believe."
faither22 mentioned "πίστις pistis" (G4102) for faith, and "πιστεύω pisteuō" (G4100) for believe.

As to what version of the Bible was it from?
Mostly from literal word for word Bible translations, which always bears Strong Numbers on every original Bible words that could help us know what it means at the time of its usage through Bible Lexicons.

Versions like;
(New American Standard 95+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(Legacy Standard Bible+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2
faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(New American Standard Bible+) Rom 3:22 but it is the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2
faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293,

(King James Version+) Rom 3:22 EvenG1161 the righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 which is byG1223
faithG4102 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 untoG1519 allG3956 andG2532 uponG1909 allG3956 them that believe:G4100 forG1063 there isG2076 noG3756 difference:G1293

And from " The New Testament in the Original Greek" by Westcott and Hort, the pioneering work in modern textual criticism that aims to restore Scriptures to its original Bible words.

(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) Rom 3:22 δικαιοσυνηG1343 N-NSF δεG1161 CONJ θεουG2316 N-GSM διαG1223 PREP πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF | [ιησου]G2424 N-GSM | ιησουG2424 N-GSM | χριστουG5547 N-GSM ειςG1519 PREP πανταςG3956 A-APM τουςG3588 T-APM πιστευονταςG4100 V-PAP-APM ουG3756 PRT-N γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S διαστοληG1293 N-NSF

Bible Lexicons always used the assigned Strong numbers of original Bible words, also to help us easily find its definition.
Just like below.

G1293 (Mounce Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
3x: distinction, difference, Rom_3:22; Rom_10:12; 1Co_14:7.

G1293 (Thayer Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
1) a distinction, difference
1a) of the different sounds musical instruments make
 
Last edited:
Greetings Yesua888,

Sorry, I fail to post what Greek word were those codes. Those are Strong Numbers for "faith" and "believe."
faither22 mentioned "πίστις pistis" (G4102) for faith, and "πιστεύω pisteuō" (G4100) for believe.

As to what version of the Bible was it from?
Mostly from literal word for word Bible translations, which always bears Strong Numbers on every original Bible words that could help us know what it means at the time of its usage through Bible Lexicons.

Versions like;
(New American Standard 95+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(Legacy Standard Bible+) Rom 3:22 evenG1161 the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2
faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293;

(New American Standard Bible+) Rom 3:22 but it is the R1righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 throughG1223 R2
faithG4102 R3in JesusG2424 ChristG5547 for R4allG3956 thoseG3588 N1who believeG4100; for R5there is noG3756 distinctionG1293,

(King James Version+) Rom 3:22 EvenG1161 the righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 which is byG1223
faithG4102 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 untoG1519 allG3956 andG2532 uponG1909 allG3956 them that believe:G4100 forG1063 there isG2076 noG3756 difference:G1293

And from " The New Testament in the Original Greek" by Westcott and Hort, the pioneering work in modern textual criticism that aims to restore Scriptures to its original Bible words.

(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) Rom 3:22 δικαιοσυνηG1343 N-NSF δεG1161 CONJ θεουG2316 N-GSM διαG1223 PREP πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF | [ιησου]G2424 N-GSM | ιησουG2424 N-GSM | χριστουG5547 N-GSM ειςG1519 PREP πανταςG3956 A-APM τουςG3588 T-APM πιστευονταςG4100 V-PAP-APM ουG3756 PRT-N γαρG1063 CONJ εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S διαστοληG1293 N-NSF

Bible Lexicons always used the assigned Strong numbers of original Bible words, also to help us easily find its definition.
Just like below.

G1293 (Mounce Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
3x: distinction, difference, Rom_3:22; Rom_10:12; 1Co_14:7.

G1293 (Thayer Lexicon)
διαστολή diastolē
1) a distinction, difference
1a) of the different sounds musical instruments make
this is very new to me : )
 
this is very new to me : )
Greetings Yesua888,

We can have those resources from, Logos Bible software, Accordance Bible software, eSword, the Word software, PC Study Bible, Olive Tree Bible software and many others.
We can find those softwares online.

Best regards,

Capbook
 

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