Does God Choose Us or Do We Choose Him? Let’s Talk Predestination

[David]

Let’s open up a real discussion on what the Bible teaches about predestination. This is not about tradition, philosophy, or what we want to be true, it’s about what the Word of God actually says.

Ephesians 1:4–5 says God “chose us in him before the foundation of the world” and “predestinated us unto the adoption of children.” Romans 8:29–30 clearly lays out that those whom He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified. This shows a plan from God that begins before we were even born.

But then John 3:16 tells us “whosoever believeth in him should not perish,” and Romans 10:13 says, “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” So how do we reconcile these verses?

Some believe predestination means God sovereignly chooses who will be saved, not based on anything they’ve done. Others argue that God’s foreknowledge means He looks ahead and sees who will believe, and then predestines them based on their choice.

So let’s debate this biblically. Not what sounds good or feels fair, but what God’s Word actually says. Use Scripture in context. No human systems, no church history, just the Bible.

Where do you stand?

• Is predestination unconditional, based only on God's will?
• Or is it conditional, based on God foreseeing our faith?
• Can both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility coexist?

Let’s go to the Word.

 

[David]

The debate about predestination among those who claim Scripture follows fuels passionate discussions yet the essential question remains what the Bible explicitly declares. Ephesians 1: The verses Ephesians 1:4–5 reveal God selected us before the world began and predestined us to become adopted children through Jesus Christ, which means His choice was independent of our actions and based solely on His purpose and grace. Romans 8: Romans 8:29–30 explicitly lists those whom God foreknew as people He also predestinated and called and justified and glorified. This demonstrates God’s sovereign control over salvation rather than random selection or injustice. His actions demonstrate His sovereign plan as He operates according to His own intentions.

But here’s where people argue. Some say predestination violates free will. Their argument suggests God’s love should extend to all because choosing only some violates their understanding of love. The mistake in this argument is that it bases itself on human emotions rather than divine scripture. The Bible says in Romans 9: Romans 9:15–16 explains how God's mercy operates independently of human will or actions since God alone determines who receives His mercy. God's justice remains intact even if He decided to save no one. God’s act of saving any person shows His mercy. The Bible assigns responsibility to mankind. In John 3: According to John 3:18 individuals who reject faith will face condemnation because they fail to believe. Scripture teaches us two truths which exist together: God makes choices and man bears responsibility.

This is where people split. To reconcile God’s control with human accountability certain individuals choose to weaken one aspect or another. But Scripture doesn’t do that. The Bible presents God’s sovereignty and human responsibility in a straightforward manner that we should accept without alteration. Deuteronomy 29: According to Deuteronomy 29:29 God keeps the secret things while revealing certain things to us and we should accept His Word without forcing it to match our understanding. When we discuss predestination we learn more about our perception of God rather than our comprehension. We face the fundamental question of whether our obedience will be towards Scripture’s authority or towards reshaping it according to human logic.

 

[NeutralZone]

Let’s open up a real discussion on what the Bible teaches about predestination. This is not about tradition, philosophy, or what we want to be true, it’s about what the Word of God actually says.

Ephesians 1:4–5 says God “chose us in him before the foundation of the world” and “predestinated us unto the adoption of children.” Romans 8:29–30 clearly lays out that those whom He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified. This shows a plan from God that begins before we were even born.

No such word as "predestination" in the Bible. The correct expression is "chose."

Mind you, there are a few Bible translations that use the word predestination at Ephesians 1:4. But in every instance, it is a translator's error where translators purposely attempt to push their false doctrines.

 

[David]

No such word as "predestination" in the Bible. The correct expression is "chose."

Mind you, there are a few Bible translations that use the word predestination at Ephesians 1:4. But in every instance, it is a translator's error where translators purposely attempt to push their false doctrines.

I’m glad that you’re being careful about word choice in translation, that is important when it comes to the Word of God. However, “predestinated” is not a mistranslation in this verse. It’s right there in the Bible. The Greek word translated here is proorizō, which means “to decide beforehand,” “to predetermine.” That’s exactly what the English word “predestinate” means. The translators didn’t stick in a word to shoehorn a doctrine. They put a word that is inspired by God.

Here’s Ephesians 1:5. “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” Here’s Romans 8:30. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified.” This is very clear language. God predestinated us, chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1: 4), and that’s not something we need to explain away, it’s something to marvel at.

Yes, people must believe the gospel. Yes, our choices are important. The Bible teaches both God’s sovereign purposes and man’s responsibility. But it does not teach that God arbitrarily elects us against our will. When faced with clear Scripture, we shouldn’t let our presuppositions define God’s Word for us. We should let His Word shape and define us, so that we can better understand. Let’s keep reading the Word together, with our hearts open, and let God’s Word speak for itself.

Just curious as to what false doctrines are being pushed.

 

[NeutralZone]

I’m glad that you’re being careful about word choice in translation, that is important when it comes to the Word of God. However, “predestinated” is not a mistranslation in this verse. It’s right there in the Bible. The Greek word translated here is proorizō, which means “to decide beforehand,” “to predetermine.” That’s exactly what the English word “predestinate” means. The translators didn’t stick in a word to shoehorn a doctrine. They put a word that is inspired by God.

Here’s Ephesians 1:5. “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” Here’s Romans 8:30. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified.” This is very clear language. God predestinated us, chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1: 4), and that’s not something we need to explain away, it’s something to marvel at.

Yes, people must believe the gospel. Yes, our choices are important. The Bible teaches both God’s sovereign purposes and man’s responsibility. But it does not teach that God arbitrarily elects us against our will. When faced with clear Scripture, we shouldn’t let our presuppositions define God’s Word for us. We should let His Word shape and define us, so that we can better understand. Let’s keep reading the Word together, with our hearts open, and let God’s Word speak for itself.

Just curious as to what false doctrines are being pushed.

It appears you believe the words predestinate and predetermine have the same meaning. In reality, they do not.

We will just have to disagree on that.

 

[NeutralZone]

Just curious as to what false doctrines are being pushed.

Are you kidding me? I guess you haven't debated at other websites where people post their beliefs. Below are just a few.

1. God is a Trinity (Father, Son, and god's holy spirit are three separate persons combined into a single "godhead").

2. Humans have an immortal soul that survives the person's physical death.

3. The wicked will literally burn in hellfire forever.

4. All good people go to heaven.

5. The earth will be destroyed.


The above are among the most popular. There are many, many more.

 

[David]

Are you kidding me? I guess you haven't debated at other websites where people post their beliefs. Below are just a few.

1. God is a Trinity (Father, Son, and god's holy spirit are three separate persons combined into a single "godhead").

2. Humans have an immortal soul that survives the person's physical death.

3. The wicked will literally burn in hellfire forever.

4. All good people go to heaven.

5. The earth will be destroyed.


The above are among the most popular. There are many, many more.

Thanks for your reply, but I think there’s been some confusion. I never mentioned any of the five doctrines you listed. I wasn’t debating the Trinity, the soul, hell, heaven, or the fate of the earth. I was responding specifically to your claim that the word predestinate in Ephesians 1:4–5 is a translator’s error used to push false doctrine. That’s a serious accusation to make about people faithfully translating the Word of God. The Greek word proorizō literally means “to determine beforehand.” It appears in Ephesians 1:5 and Romans 8:29–30. That’s not bias or manipulation, that’s just honest translation. If someone reads “predestinate” in the text and jumps to an unbiblical doctrine, that’s a separate issue. But the word itself is accurate and belongs there. So again I’ll ask, what false doctrine did I push? I quoted the verse, gave the original Greek meaning, and affirmed that God’s Word speaks clearly. I also said man must believe the gospel and that God doesn't override the will. If there’s something false in that, then please show me from Scripture. If not, let’s stay focused on what the Bible actually says.

PS: I want to just make a personal side note here: I have been involved in biblical debates for years and years on countless websites. I am not new to this at all. I have seen every side of the spectrum. And I still stand by what the Bible actually says.

 

[NeutralZone]

Thanks for your reply, but I think there’s been some confusion. I never mentioned any of the five doctrines you listed. I wasn’t debating the Trinity, the soul, hell, heaven, or the fate of the earth. . . . So again I’ll ask, what false doctrine did I push? I quoted the verse, gave the original Greek meaning, and affirmed that God’s Word speaks clearly. I also said man must believe the gospel and that God doesn't override the will. If there’s something false in that, then please show me from Scripture. If not, let’s stay focused on what the Bible actually says.

You're right. There's definitely some confusion, because at no time did I say that you pushed any false doctrines. At Post #3, I said the following about Bible translators:

No such word as "predestination" in the Bible. The correct expression is "chose."

Mind you, there are a few Bible translations that use the word predestination at Ephesians 1:4. But in every instance, it is a translator's error where translators purposely attempt to push their false doctrines.

You then responded as follows at Post #4

Just curious as to what false doctrines are being pushed.

I then gave you a few examples of the false doctrines being pushed by some Bible translators.

I don't think you produced any Bible translations. So my response at Post #6, where I provided five examples of the false doctrines being pushed by Bible translators, did not apply to you. I can't understand how you came to that conclusion.

 

[NeutralZone]

Thanks for your reply, but I think there’s been some confusion. I never mentioned any of the five doctrines you listed. I wasn’t debating the Trinity, the soul, hell, heaven, or the fate of the earth. I was responding specifically to your claim that the word predestinate in Ephesians 1:4–5 is a translator’s error used to push false doctrine. That’s a serious accusation to make about people faithfully translating the Word of God. The Greek word proorizō literally means “to determine beforehand.” It appears in Ephesians 1:5 and Romans 8:29–30. That’s not bias or manipulation, that’s just honest translation. If someone reads “predestinate” in the text and jumps to an unbiblical doctrine, that’s a separate issue. But the word itself is accurate and belongs there. So again I’ll ask, what false doctrine did I push? I quoted the verse, gave the original Greek meaning, and affirmed that God’s Word speaks clearly. I also said man must believe the gospel and that God doesn't override the will. If there’s something false in that, then please show me from Scripture. If not, let’s stay focused on what the Bible actually says.

PS: I want to just make a personal side note here: I have been involved in biblical debates for years and years on countless websites. I am not new to this at all. I have seen every side of the spectrum. And I still stand by what the Bible actually says.

Since you continue to insist that predestinate and predetermine have the same meaning, I will leave that topic alone. We are not going to agree on that.

 

[David]

Since you continue to insist that predestinate and predetermine have the same meaning, I will leave that topic alone. We are not going to agree on that.

You said: “Since you continue to insist that predestinate and predetermine have the same meaning, I will leave that topic alone.”

Ok, but let’s clear that up. I never said “predestinate and predetermine have the same meaning” as an across-the-board-statement of English usage. What I said, is that the Greek word proorizō as used in Ephesians 1: 5 and Romans 8:29–30 literally means “to decide beforehand,” “to predetermine.” That’s not an opinion or a doctrine, that’s just what the word means. Translators didn’t put a doctrine in the text, they translated a word. In this biblical context, the word “predestinate” is an accurate translation of proorizō.

So if you’re objecting to that word being in the Bible, your objection is not to me but to the original Greek text and to those who translated it faithfully. I’m simply quoting what’s already there, and letting Scripture speak.

If you want to argue that the word “predestinate” and “predetermine” are different things in your thinking, go ahead and explain why. But don’t put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I said. Let’s not play games when we’re dealing with the Word of God.

 

[David]

You're right. There's definitely some confusion, because at no time did I say that you pushed any false doctrines. At Post #3, I said the following about Bible translators:



You then responded as follows at Post #4


I then gave you a few examples of the false doctrines being pushed by some Bible translators.

I don't think you produced any Bible translations. So my response at Post #6, where I provided five examples of the false doctrines being pushed by Bible translators, did not apply to you. I can't understand how you came to that conclusion.

I believe you are avoiding the original point. In your post you asserted that “predestinate” in Ephesians 1: 4–5 was an error of translation and further alleged it was inserted to “push false doctrines.” That is an incredible allegation; and in response, I asked a very reasonable question: Exactly what false doctrines are being pushed?

You now claim your response in Post #6 “did not apply” to me because I am not a Bible translator. However, I never said I was one. I was answering your public charge that Bible translators were corrupting God’s Word. And because I was quoting from the translation you were specifically and directly attacking, I was more than entitled to ask you to identify the doctrines they were “pushing.”

Let me be blunt: I did not misquote you. I answered you. You made an allegation of corruption in God’s Word in translation and I simply questioned you to provide proof of that. If you didn’t mean to say that those who translated Ephesians 1: 5 were in fact corrupting the text, then say so. But do not suggest I misunderstood you when in fact I was calling your charge into question. I am seeking truth not evasion. So let’s deal with the text–Greek, English, and Scripture, as it is, not as we would like it to be.

Please answer:

Exactly which Bible translations are you charging with corrupting the text?

Who are these translators?

Exactly where in their translations will those false doctrines that you listed in Post #6 be found?

If you are going to make such a blanket charge, then at the very least back it up with Scripture and facts. Quote the verses, name the versions, and point out exactly how they have inserted the false doctrines. Otherwise, it sounds like you are merely hurling unfounded accusations against faithful translators with nothing but your own word to support you.