Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

[Rose]

Hey everyone, I came across this 2-part study on whether a Christian can lose their salvation and wanted to see what you guys think.

 

[by grace]

Hey everyone, I came across this 2-part study on whether a Christian can lose their salvation and wanted to see what you guys think.

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part I) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Can Christians lose their salvation? Explore Hebrews 10:26 and what “sinning willfully” means, along with the path of true discipleship.

christianquestions.com

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part II) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Part II explores how we can guard our salvation through faithfulness, free will and holding fast to God’s calling.

christianquestions.com

this only cretaes arguments some say yes some say no

 

[by grace]

Hey everyone, I came across this 2-part study on whether a Christian can lose their salvation and wanted to see what you guys think.

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part I) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Can Christians lose their salvation? Explore Hebrews 10:26 and what “sinning willfully” means, along with the path of true discipleship.

christianquestions.com

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part II) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Part II explores how we can guard our salvation through faithfulness, free will and holding fast to God’s calling.

christianquestions.com

have you studied this out?

 

[bobinfaith]

Hey everyone, I came across this 2-part study on whether a Christian can lose their salvation and wanted to see what you guys think.

this only cretaes arguments some say yes some say no

have you studied this out?

Good morning, Rose;

First, you ask a question that all of us must reflect on daily, seriously. There are so many reasons why Christians lose their Salvation and as by grace shared, it can fester into arguments. This is the devil getting his licks in.

I was saved 60 years ago. I'll be 70 in January and to this day I still reflect on that question you ask and discuss this with Jesus during morning and evening prayers.

I'm going to share through the human witness of other Christians and former Christians.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - ESV

There are so many Scriptures and Passages in the Old and New Testaments that teach of God’s Grace and Gift of Salvation. This is the act of being saved by faith in God's promise of a Savior rather than human works or the law.

Genesis 3:15 was the first early Good News (or Gospel,) the promise of a coming Savior by the "seed" of the woman who would crush the serpent to save us.

There are many, many Christians who are saved and face the many things (the path) that happen in life. So we learn to turn to God for everything. Despite, at the beginning and end of the day, we still embrace our salvation. That we cannot lose.

There are Christians who have discussed with me that they lost their salvation. Taken aback, I ask them, WHY? I get many reasons and it always hones in on the four soils. These brothers and sisters confessed they weren't really being truthful when they accepted Christ as their Savior.

In Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:4–15, the first three soils Jesus teaches the reason many fall away is because of the The Path / Hard Ground, Rocky Ground / Stony Places and the Thorny Ground.

These brothers and sisters explain theirs was an emotional decision and it felt good. Over time they confessed they still enjoy the ways of the world and are not set aside (sanctified) to God.

Hebrews 10:10, 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - ESV

It's important we pray for these brothers and sisters who forego their promised gift of salvation. The devil is deceptive and will lead us to the low road (the wide gate, or road) and the things you cannot get on the high road (the small and narrow gate, or road.)

God bless you, Rose, and your family.

Keep writing!

Bob

 

[by grace]

we can be secure in our salvation....thats a given just read what it is not is a license or excuse to sin .paul covers that in romans 6 .

we are given a new nature will we fall into temptation ? will we fail ? yes the key to it all will we get back up? will we follow the instructions of 1 john 1:9 if we return to the old nature was we ever truly saved?

the debate of can you or you cant will never be settled .. lets do our best to live it . the prodigal son returned
,

 

[David]

After examining both parts of this teaching and comparing the arguments with Scripture, I do believe we need to make an important distinction between someone who professes to be a Christian and someone who has genuinely been born again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 describes people who were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Those are serious descriptions, but we should not automatically conclude that every person who experiences these things has been regenerated. Hebrews 6:9 is particularly important because the writer goes on to speak of “better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.”

We also have to consider 1 John 2:19, where John explains that some departed from the believers because they were never truly of them. That means outward identification with Christ, exposure to the truth, and even a profession of faith do not necessarily establish genuine salvation.

Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:27-28). We cannot ignore that promise when interpreting the warnings in Hebrews.

At the same time, we cannot ignore Hebrews 10:26-29, which warns of terrible judgment for deliberately rejecting Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These warnings are not empty threats. They expose the seriousness of apostasy and the danger of rejecting the only sacrifice that can save.

But there is another serious problem with this podcast. It teaches that most of humanity will be resurrected in the future and then receive their first genuine opportunity for salvation. Jesus does not teach that in John 5:28-29. He distinguishes between the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. Hebrews 9:27 also tells us that after death comes judgment, not another opportunity to believe.

I believe we need to be extremely careful not to build a doctrine about losing salvation from passages that do not conclusively establish that the people involved were ever saved. We must also be careful not to turn God's genuine warnings into meaningless statements.

The question is not whether a person can profess Christianity and later fall away. Scripture plainly shows that can happen. The real question is whether someone who has truly been born again, received eternal life, and become one of Christ's sheep can ultimately perish.

That question must be answered by the whole counsel of Scripture, not by a theological position we have already decided to defend.

 

[David]

this only cretaes arguments some say yes some say no

I believe the real issue is how we understand Scripture in its proper context and in light of the entire Bible. We cannot take one passage about salvation and build a doctrine around it while ignoring other passages that help explain it.

God's Word does not contradict itself. If our interpretation of one passage conflicts with what Scripture clearly teaches elsewhere, then we need to go back and examine our understanding, not question God's Word.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15 to rightly divide the word of truth, and Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans for searching the Scriptures daily to see whether the things they were being taught were true.

I agree that these discussions can turn into arguments, but they don't have to. We should be willing to examine what we believe against the whole counsel of God's Word. The goal should never be to prove ourselves right, but to understand what God has actually said. And when Scripture corrects our understanding, we should be willing to accept that correction.

 

[bobinfaith]

After examining both parts of this teaching and comparing the arguments with Scripture, I do believe we need to make an important distinction between someone who professes to be a Christian and someone who has genuinely been born again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 describes people who were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Those are serious descriptions, but we should not automatically conclude that every person who experiences these things has been regenerated. Hebrews 6:9 is particularly important because the writer goes on to speak of “better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.”

At the same time, we cannot ignore Hebrews 10:26-29, which warns of terrible judgment for deliberately rejecting Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth. These warnings are not empty threats. They expose the seriousness of apostasy and the danger of rejecting the only sacrifice that can save.

But there is another serious problem with this podcast. It teaches that most of humanity will be resurrected in the future and then receive their first genuine opportunity for salvation. Jesus does not teach that in John 5:28-29. He distinguishes between the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. Hebrews 9:27 also tells us that after death comes judgment, not another opportunity to believe.

I believe we need to be extremely careful not to build a doctrine about losing salvation from passages that do not conclusively establish that the people involved were ever saved. We must also be careful not to turn God's genuine warnings into meaningless statements.

That question must be answered by the whole counsel of Scripture, not by a theological position we have already decided to defend.

Hello David;

I dissected your post and will address it later. I wanted to ask you to define "born again," "reborn again," and "regenerated" for many of our readers and members.

I read from a previous Christian forum a member used these words interchangeably and it became quite confusing to follow the OP. If I'm correct this would fall into the category of "building a doctrine" from the original Scriptural context.

This is a good discussion and I'll follow up later.

God bless you, David.

Bob

 

[David]

Hello David;

I dissected your post and will address it later. I wanted to ask you to define "born again," "reborn again," and "regenerated" for many of our readers and members.

I read from a previous Christian forum a member used these words interchangeably and it became quite confusing to follow the OP. If I'm correct this would fall into the category of "building a doctrine" from the original Scriptural context.

This is a good discussion and I'll follow up later.

God bless you, David.

Bob

That's a good question. I think these terms are easier to understand than they might sound.

Born again means receiving a new spiritual life from God. Jesus said in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." He wasn't talking about being born physically a second time. He was talking about a spiritual birth through the Holy Spirit.

Regenerated means basically the same thing. It simply means being given new spiritual life by God. Titus 3:5 tells us this is something God does through His mercy and the Holy Spirit, not something we earn by doing good works.

Reborn again isn't a separate biblical teaching. It's just another way people say "born again."

So, as I understand Scripture, being born again and being regenerated mean the same thing. God gives a person new spiritual life.

Now, here is why this matters to our discussion about losing salvation.

Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't necessarily mean they have been born again. A person can attend church, know the Bible, and even teach Scripture without truly knowing Jesus Christ. Jesus warned about this in Matthew 7:21-23.

So the question isn't simply whether someone who calls himself a Christian can walk away from the faith. The real question is whether someone who has genuinely been born again and received new life from God can lose that salvation.

That's what I believe we need to examine carefully from the whole Bible.

 

[by grace]

That question must be answered by the whole counsel of Scripture,

thats the point the scripture does not say we can or can not losse salvation.. how ever there are warnings all through out the Bible. i have studied both sides of the coin out for years. for example i was ordained gen baptist they hold you can fall away and eventually be lost . my Mom sister is southern baptist they hold to you can not... after i got saved my oldest aunt sent me southern baptist literature on salvation.. . since that time i studied out scriptures both sides presented. they both was correct to some degree. most of this is interruption now then just last week i preached i dont teach either way..

even though the security is there but not to purposely sin as to say . i just dont get rewards.. i like to discuss these things with those who like to discuss. romans 6 paul wrote what shall we sin because we are under grace? certainly not. as i told the church sunday if you hold to you cant then you need to live it like you believe it and if you hold to you can you need to live it like you believe it.

Calvinist hold to p.o.s preservernace of the saints

some feel you have to beg to stay saved

some baptise someone in your place after you die to go to heaven

other you must be prayed out of purgatory

 

[David]

thats the point the scripture does not say we can or can not losse salvation.. how ever there are warnings all through out the Bible. i have studied both sides of the coin out for years. for example i was ordained gen baptist they hold you can fall away and eventually be lost . my Mom sister is southern baptist they hold to you can not... after i got saved my oldest aunt sent me southern baptist literature on salvation.. . since that time i studied out scriptures both sides presented. they both was correct to some degree. most of this is interruption now then just last week i preached i dont teach either way..

even though the security is there but not to purposely sin as to say . i just dont get rewards.. i like to discuss these things with those who like to discuss. romans 6 paul wrote what shall we sin because we are under grace? certainly not. as i told the church sunday if you hold to you cant then you need to live it like you believe it and if you hold to you can you need to live it like you believe it.

Calvinist hold to p.o.s preservernace of the saints

some feel you have to beg to stay saved

some baptise someone in your place after you die to go to heaven

other you must be prayed out of purgatory

I agree that we need to examine the whole counsel of Scripture, but I disagree that the Bible leaves us without an answer. Jesus made some very clear promises concerning those who truly belong to Him, and we cannot ignore those promises any more than we can ignore the warnings about falling away.

In John 10:27-28, Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

In John 6:39, Jesus also said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

Those are not the opinions of men. Those are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. He promises eternal life to His sheep and declares that He will lose nothing the Father has given Him.

At the same time, Scripture contains serious warnings about falling away, unbelief, and continuing in sin. Hebrews 3:12 warns, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” And Romans 6:1-2 makes it clear that God's grace is never permission to continue living in sin.

But we also need to consider 1 John 2:19, which says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us.”

John is describing people whose departure revealed that they had never truly belonged. That is an important distinction. Not everyone who professes faith in Jesus Christ has actually been born again. Jesus Himself warned in Matthew 7:21-23 that many would call Him Lord, yet He would declare, “I never knew you.” Notice that He did not say He knew them once and then lost them. He said He never knew them.

Now, that does not mean we should dismiss passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6 or Hebrews 10:26-29. Those are serious warnings, and they deserve careful examination in their proper context. We cannot simply explain them away because they challenge our understanding.

I believe the strongest biblical evidence supports the security of those who truly belong to Jesus Christ, while also showing that genuine faith continues in Him. But I want that conclusion to come from Scripture, not from any religious system or doctrine I have been taught.

As for the different denominations and religious teachings you mentioned, I believe we need to leave those traditions out of determining biblical truth. Whether someone is Baptist, Calvinist, or belongs to any other religious group makes absolutely no difference to what God has said. God's Word is the final authority, not a denomination, preacher, religious tradition, or man's opinion.

And matters such as purgatory, prayers for the dead, and baptism on behalf of the dead should not be confused with the question of eternal security. Each teaching must be examined separately against Scripture. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that after death comes judgment. Scripture does not establish purgatory or teach that prayers can change someone's eternal destination after death. And although 1 Corinthians 15:29 mentions baptism for the dead, it does not command Christians to practice it or teach that such baptism saves anyone.

We should never place our faith in something simply because a religious group teaches it or because generations of people have believed it.

Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” That is the example we should follow, regardless of who is teaching.

And let me make one thing absolutely clear. Our goal should NEVER be to defend eternal security or the possibility of losing salvation simply because that is what we have been taught or what we prefer to believe. Our goal is to discover and believe what GOD has actually said in His Word!

If Scripture promises eternal life to those who truly belong to Christ, we must believe that promise. If Scripture warns against falling away, unbelief, and continuing in sin, we must take those warnings just as seriously. We have no right to ignore, twist, or explain away one passage to defend our interpretation of another.

We are not here to defend religious traditions, denominations, or the opinions of men. We are here to submit to the whole counsel of God's Word, whether it agrees with what we have always believed or not.

So I believe the question we really need to examine is this: If Jesus says His sheep shall never perish, how do we understand the warnings about those who fall away? Were they genuinely born again and then lost their salvation, or did their departure reveal that they never truly belonged to Christ?

That is where I believe we should concentrate our study, allowing Scripture to explain Scripture.

The question is not, “Which side am I on?” The question is, “WHAT DOES GOD SAY?” And when Scripture speaks, our responsibility is to believe it, even when it challenges something we have believed our entire lives.

 

[by grace]

And let me make one thing absolutely clear. Our goal should NEVER be to defend eternal security or the possibility of losing salvation simply because that is what we have been taught or what we prefer to believe. Our goal is to discover and believe what GOD has actually said in His Word!

If Scripture promises eternal life to those who truly belong to Christ, we must believe that promise. If Scripture warns against falling away, unbelief, and continuing in sin, we must take those warnings just as seriously. We have no right to ignore, twist, or explain away one passage to defend our interpretation of another.

We are not here to defend religious traditions, denominations, or the opinions of men. We are here to submit to the whole counsel of God's Word, whether it agrees with what we have always believed or not.

So I believe the question we really need to examine is this: If Jesus says His sheep shall never perish, how do we understand the warnings about those who fall away? Were they genuinely born again and then lost their salvation, or did their departure reveal that they never truly belonged to Christ?

That is where I believe we should concentrate our study, allowing Scripture to explain Scripture.

The question is not, “Which side am I on?” The question is, “WHAT DOES GOD SAY?” And when Scripture speaks, our responsibility is to believe it, even when it challenges something we have believed our entire lives.

this is what i been saying all along,, scripture does not say we can or can not..man over the years has read a scripture and made it a church doctrine. there is scriptures of warning scriptures of promises , scripture teaches eternal life, what scripture does not teach is we can live how we want if we want once again paul covers this twice in Romans 6,i had rather be walking with him when i leave this life. that not walking with him and living like the devil .

the Bible teaches
in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Romans 2:16

we have so much strange fire teaching that has been watered down you can strain it through a paper towel

so when i say scripture dont say them exact words.. thats my point

 

[David]

this is what i been saying all along,, scripture does not say we can or can not..man over the years has read a scripture and made it a church doctrine. there is scriptures of warning scriptures of promises , scripture teaches eternal life, what scripture does not teach is we can live how we want if we want once again paul covers this twice in Romans 6,i had rather be walking with him when i leave this life. that not walking with him and living like the devil .

the Bible teaches
in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Romans 2:16

we have so much strange fire teaching that has been watered down you can strain it through a paper towel

so when i say scripture dont say them exact words.. thats my point

I agree with you that we should not build doctrine around whether the Bible uses the exact words “lose your salvation.” The Bible does not use that phrase. But I would not go so far as to say Scripture does not tell us whether a true believer can or cannot finally perish. Jesus said plainly:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish.” John 10:27-28

At the same time, Scripture gives serious warnings about unbelief, falling away, and continuing in sin. Those warnings must not be watered down either. And you are absolutely right about Romans 6. Grace is never permission to live like the devil:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” Romans 6:1-2

So I think we have to go further than saying, “Scripture doesn't say.” Scripture actually says quite a lot. The real question is how the promises and warnings fit together. That is what I want us to examine without forcing either side onto the text. If someone truly belongs to Christ and Jesus says that person will “never perish,” then we need to understand who the people are in the warning passages and what Scripture means when it speaks about falling away. We should let Scripture answer that question, not church doctrine.

 

[Yesua888]

It's important we pray for these brothers and sisters who forego their promised gift of salvation. The devil is deceptive and will lead us to the low road (the wide gate, or road) and the things you cannot get on the high road (the small and narrow gate, or road.)

Thank you for bringing this important fact up Bob : )

Lately, I have been able to see the "bigger picture" of so much that is going on in the world ...

I see young and old hooked on drugs, having started off with a "helpful drug" be if for ADHD, depression, pain, you name it ... there are so many people suffering to come off those drugs. The worst being "benzo protracted withdrawals", the worse ever, and people know nothing about this because, it is by design. The doctors just encourage you to take another drug (or two or three) for the side effects of the drug/s that you are trying to come off of.
There are side effects to all of these drugs, but when you read about someone who is going through "hell" trying to get off these drugs because of the damage that they eventually do, you realise that those side effects are no longer published, for all to see?
Our churches where the bible has been "softened" ... I am sure you know what I mean here
Our judicial system ... completely upside down now ... what happened to God's Law and The Oath?
The Oath that our doctors used to take "do no harm" ... where is the "law" now days, when doctors are caught out for negligence; is it becoming non existent?
And on and on it goes ...

We start to see the bigger picture

Let us pray that our Brothers and Sisters, wake up to the fact that there are Good Forces (God) and evil ones (satan)

So many of our children do not believe in either

 

[by grace]

Lately, I have been able to see the "bigger picture" of so much that is going on in the world ...

we aint seen nothing yet. the spirit of antichrist is sweeping across the land. the church is being attacked from the inside. the trojan horse was parked in front and the people celebrated being blinded by the god of this world

 

[bobinfaith]

Born again means receiving a new spiritual life from God. Jesus said in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." He wasn't talking about being born physically a second time. He was talking about a spiritual birth through the Holy Spirit.
Regenerated means basically the same thing. It simply means being given new spiritual life by God. Titus 3:5 tells us this is something God does through His mercy and the Holy Spirit, not something we earn by doing good works.
Reborn again isn't a separate biblical teaching. It's just another way people say "born again."
So, as I understand Scripture, being born again and being regenerated mean the same thing. God gives a person new spiritual life.

So I believe the question we really need to examine is this: If Jesus says His sheep shall never perish, how do we understand the warnings about those who fall away? Were they genuinely born again and then lost their salvation, or did their departure reveal that they never truly belonged to Christ?
That is where I believe we should concentrate our study, allowing Scripture to explain Scripture.

we aint seen nothing yet. the spirit of antichrist is sweeping across the land. the church is being attacked from the inside. the trojan horse was parked in front and the people celebrated being blinded by the god of this world

Good morning, everyone;

Thank you, David, for breaking down, Born Again, Regenerated and Reborn Again. I agree, all equate to receiving Christ as Lord and Savior at the same time being filled with the Holy Spirit (Spiritual Birth.)

I'll reiterate what I shared in my previous post. For the many Christians who are born again receive Salvation and while growing daily in their relationship with Jesus continue to embrace their Salvation.

David posed an important question, "If Jesus says His sheep shall never perish, how do we understand the warnings about those who fall away? Were they genuinely born again and then lost their salvation, or did their departure reveal that they never truly belonged to Christ?"

Unfortunately, I have to say yes to those who have fallen away. From the beginning many who received Jesus as their Lord and Savior was an emotional and happy decision, but not a Spiritual decision. There is a difference.

God understands all of us who are born again do not pay attention to the difference, at first, because of the three soils ahead in our lives. But Jesus promises His sheep will never perish applies to those who trust and accept His Word. As a result many Christians who overcome the three soils and endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:9-14

The ones who were overwhelmed by the three soils, Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:4–15, would eventually find a way out and seek instant gratification of the world to soften the struggles in their lives.

by grace makes the point, "we ain't seen nothing yet! the spirit of antichrist is sweeping across the land. the church is being attacked from the inside. the trojan horse was parked in front and the people celebrated being blinded by the god of this world"

"When life gets rough, go shopping" or "when we get into free fall, get away and take a trip" or "when no one's looking, satisfy the flesh," "have a drink or two, or three, unwind," etc...

For all Christians, each and everyday embrace our promise from God for our Salvation and endure those 3 soils. Pray incessantly for those who have surrendered their free gift of salvation, and pay heed to the teaching of Peter;

1 Peter 5:6-10, 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you. 7 Cast all your anxieties on him, for he cares about you. 8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. 9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world. 10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you. - RSV

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[Rose]

Hi everyone. I shared David's reply to christian questions dot com and invited them to our forum but I don't think they will. If you go to part 2 link, they posted a lengthy comment.

 

[Yesua888]

A beautiful response above ...

In the Parable of the Sower (found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8), the "three soils" that fail to produce fruit represent three distinct negative responses to the Word of God or the Gospel, contrasting with the fourth "good soil" that yields a harvest.

1. The Path (Hardened Soil): This represents a heart that is impervious to truth due to unbelief or hardness of heart. The hearer receives the message but does not understand it, allowing Satan (represented by birds) to snatch it away before it can take root.
2. The Rocky Soil (Shallow Soil): This depicts those who receive the word with joy and initial enthusiasm but have no spiritual depth. When tribulation, persecution, or trouble arises because of the word, they quickly fall away because they lack a deep root system.
3. The Thorny Soil (Choked Soil): This illustrates those who hear the word, but it is choked by the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things. These worldly pursuits compete for the hearer's time and attention, making the word unfruitful despite initial growth.

Collectively, these three soils signify a failure to produce spiritual fruit, which many interpretations view as evidence that the individual was never truly saved or has abandoned their faith, whereas only the good soil results in eternal life and a hundredfold harvest

Verses often cited for the possibility of forfeiting salvation:

• Hebrews 6:4–6 — "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift… and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
• Hebrews 10:26–27 — "If we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment."
• 2 Peter 2:20–21 — "Those who escape the world's pollution through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but then get entangled in it again and are overcome, their final state is worse than the first."
• Galatians 5:4 — "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
• Matthew 7:21–23 — "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom… and then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you.'"

Verses cited on the other side (assurance of salvation):

• John 10:28–29 — "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."
• Romans 8:38–39 — Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.
• Romans 11:29 — "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

 

[Yesua888]

Hi everyone. I shared David's reply to christian questions dot com and invited them to our forum but I don't think they will. If you go to part 2 link, they posted a lengthy comment.

Would you please "cut and paste" the comment" as I do not know where to look for it? Thanks : )

 

[Rose]

Would you please "cut and paste" the comment" as I do not know where to look for it? Thanks : )

Edited. this is the reply I received. I'm posting it in 3 parts. While the King James Version translates the end of verse 29 as the “resurrection of damnation,” nearly all modern translations (such as the NASB, ESV, and ASV) translate it accurately as the “resurrection of judgment.” This word translated ‘judgment’ (or ‘damnation’) is the Greek noun krisis (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #2920). Krisis does not mean a pre-determined sentence or instantaneous execution of doom; lexical definitions show it means a trial, a process of investigation, a contest or an evaluation. It is the root of our English word “crisis,” describing a critical turning point where the outcome could go either way.

The “resurrection of life” applies to Christ’s faithful followers who have already undergone their trial and testing during this present Gospel Age (“judgment begins at the household of God,” 1 Peter 4:17). They receive life immediately upon resurrection. The “resurrection of judgment” applies to the rest of humanity. They are awakened not to be immediately condemned for sins inherited from Adam, but to enter a period of trial, learning and accountability under the righteous rule of Christ’s kingdom. As Isaiah 26:9 explains, “When the earth experiences Your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

 

[Rose]

Hebrews 9:27 states: “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment…” Notice that the writer uses the exact same word: krisis (#2920). The text states that after death comes judgment (a trial) — it does not state that after death all opportunity to learn and obey God is forever closed. The broader context of Hebrews 9–10 describes how Jesus offered himself once for all to put away sin. Because of Adam’s disobedience, all of humanity inherited death (“in Adam all die,” 1 Corinthians 15:22). Because of Jesus’ corresponding ransom price, “even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

We completely agree that Scripture does not promise a “second chance” to someone who has already received a full, spirit-begotten knowledge of the truth and willfully rejected Christ (Hebrews 6:4–6, 10:26–29). However, for the vast majority of human history — the billions who lived and died before Jesus, infants, the mentally challenged or those who never heard the gospel and born in the wrong time in the wrong place to the wrong family — they have never had their first genuine opportunity.

 

[Rose]

The Apostle Paul tells us that God “will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge (epignosis, meaning full discernment) of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:3–6). Similarly, 1 Timothy 4:10 proclaims that the living God is the “Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Believers are saved first in this age by invitation; the world is redeemed and brought to their trial of judgment later in the kingdom.

Rather than contradicting Jesus and Paul, the understanding of a future, righteous day of trial highlights the profound depth of God’s justice and mercy — giving every person purchased by the blood of Christ a fair, uncontaminated opportunity to learn righteousness and choose life. If you’d like to explore this even further, we encourage you to check out two specific episodes where we walk through these scriptures verse by verse: Episode 1175: “Did God Make Heaven and Hell Humanity’s Destiny? (Part II)” — where we dig directly into the Greek context and harmony of both John 5:28–29 and Hebrews 9:27. Episode 1231: “What if I’m Not Good Enough for Heaven?” — which explores what Scripture reveals about God’s righteous, educational trial for the world during Christ’s kingdom. We’d love to hear your thoughts after giving them a listen! –

 

[Yesua888]

It’s good to hear from you again, Rose. While the King James Version translates the end of verse 29 as the “resurrection of damnation,” nearly all modern translations (such as the NASB, ESV, and ASV) translate it accurately as the “resurrection of judgment.” This word translated ‘judgment’ (or ‘damnation’) is the Greek noun krisis (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #2920). Krisis does not mean a pre-determined sentence or instantaneous execution of doom; lexical definitions show it means a trial, a process of investigation, a contest or an evaluation. It is the root of our English word “crisis,” describing a critical turning point where the outcome could go either way.

The “resurrection of life” applies to Christ’s faithful followers who have already undergone their trial and testing during this present Gospel Age (“judgment begins at the household of God,” 1 Peter 4:17). They receive life immediately upon resurrection. The “resurrection of judgment” applies to the rest of humanity. They are awakened not to be immediately condemned for sins inherited from Adam, but to enter a period of trial, learning and accountability under the righteous rule of Christ’s kingdom. As Isaiah 26:9 explains, “When the earth experiences Your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

Sorry Rose, I can see now how abrupt my question to you came across.
I will bear that in mind in future : )
(It’s good to hear from you again, Rose.)

 

[Rose]

Sorry Rose, I can see now how abrupt my question to you came across.
I will bear that in mind in future : )
(It’s good to hear from you again, Rose.)

It's a misunderstanding, @Yesua888 . I just copy pasted everything. I should have omitted it. sorry.

 

[bobinfaith]

Would you please "cut and paste" the comment" as I do not know where to look for it? Thanks : )

It’s good to hear from you again, Rose. While the King James Version translates the end of verse 29 as the “resurrection of damnation,” nearly all modern translations (such as the NASB, ESV, and ASV) translate it accurately as the “resurrection of judgment.” This word translated ‘judgment’ (or ‘damnation’) is the Greek noun krisis (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #2920). Krisis does not mean a pre-determined sentence or instantaneous execution of doom; lexical definitions show it means a trial, a process of investigation, a contest or an evaluation. It is the root of our English word “crisis,” describing a critical turning point where the outcome could go either way.

The “resurrection of life” applies to Christ’s faithful followers who have already undergone their trial and testing during this present Gospel Age (“judgment begins at the household of God,” 1 Peter 4:17). They receive life immediately upon resurrection. The “resurrection of judgment” applies to the rest of humanity. They are awakened not to be immediately condemned for sins inherited from Adam, but to enter a period of trial, learning and accountability under the righteous rule of Christ’s kingdom. As Isaiah 26:9 explains, “When the earth experiences Your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

Good morning;

Rose, I'm confused. In your post were you posting to yourself, or addressing Yesua888?

God bless you, Rose, and thank you.

Bob

 

[David]

Hi everyone. I shared David's reply to christian questions dot com and invited them to our forum but I don't think they will. If you go to part 2 link, they posted a lengthy comment.

A Serious Warning to BTF Members About Christian Questions and Its Connection to the Watchtower Movement​

BTF members, I want to warn everyone about a website called Christian Questions (ChristianQuestions.com). Before you trust their Bible studies or share their teachings with others, you need to understand where this ministry comes from and what it actually believes.

Christian Questions comes from the Bible Students movement, which originated with Charles Taze Russell in the late 1800s. This is the same religious movement that produced the Watchtower organization and eventually Jehovah's Witnesses.

Russell helped establish the Watch Tower Society in 1881. After his death in 1916, the movement divided. Those who remained under Joseph Rutherford's leadership eventually adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931. Others separated from the Watchtower organization and continued independently as Bible Students, retaining many of Russell's original teachings.

Christian Questions identifies with these independent Bible Students.

Let me be clear. The Watchtower organization and Jehovah's Witnesses promote false teachings that contradict Scripture, particularly concerning the identity of Jesus Christ. And while Christian Questions is not the same organization as today's Jehovah's Witnesses, it comes from the same religious roots and teaches some of the same serious doctrinal errors.

But I don't want anyone to reject this ministry simply because of its history. The real question is whether what they teach agrees with God's Word.

And when we examine their teachings, we find some very serious problems.

First, they deny that Jesus Christ is God.

Christian Questions teaches that Jesus was God's first creation, that He existed before coming into the world, and that He was not deity. They also promote the interpretation of John 1:1 that says the Word was "a god."

But John 1:1 says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Thomas addressed Jesus in John 20:28 as "My Lord and my God."

Hebrews 1:8 says concerning the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

And Colossians 2:9 declares, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

These are not minor differences of interpretation. We are talking about the very identity of Jesus Christ.

Second, they deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

They teach that the Holy Spirit is God's power or influence rather than a distinct person.

Yet Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 13:2), teaches (John 14:26), can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), and can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4).

The Bible does not describe the Holy Spirit as merely an impersonal force.

Third, they teach that people who die without Christ can receive an opportunity for salvation after the resurrection.

This is the very issue we have been discussing here at BTF.

Christian Questions teaches that most of humanity will be resurrected during Christ's kingdom and given an opportunity to learn righteousness, obey God, and receive everlasting life.

But where does Jesus teach this?

John 5:28-29 describes two resurrections, one unto life and the other unto judgment. Jesus never says those raised for judgment will then receive their first opportunity to repent and be saved.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

It does not say that after death comes another opportunity for salvation.

And John 3:36 plainly warns that those who do not believe the Son remain under God's wrath.

Christian Questions attempts to build an entire future plan of salvation around passages that never actually teach it.

Fourth, they reject everlasting conscious punishment.

They teach that the wicked will ultimately be destroyed in the sense of ceasing to exist.

But Jesus said in Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Revelation 14:11 describes torment whose smoke ascends forever and ever, with no rest day or night.

These passages must be taken seriously. We cannot redefine biblical words to make difficult passages disappear.

BTF members, here is why I am bringing this to your attention.

Christian Questions presents itself as a Bible-centered ministry. They quote Scripture frequently, explain Greek words, produce professional Bible studies, and speak about God's love, mercy, and justice.

But quoting Scripture does not automatically mean someone is teaching the truth.

Remember, Satan himself quoted Scripture when tempting Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7. The problem was not that the words came from Scripture. The problem was how they were being used.

Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4 about those who preach "another Jesus."

And in Galatians 1:8 he wrote:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

We cannot treat false teaching about the identity of Christ and the way of salvation as though these were harmless differences of opinion.

I am not saying that everyone who listens to Christian Questions understands or accepts these doctrines. Nor am I claiming to know the hearts of Rick, Jonathan, or anyone associated with their ministry.

But their teachings must be judged by Scripture, and the errors concerning Jesus Christ and salvation are serious enough that I cannot recommend this ministry as a trustworthy source of biblical instruction.

This is especially important for new Christians who may not yet recognize the difference between someone quoting Scripture and someone correctly teaching it.

Acts 17:11 tells us that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily to determine whether what they were being taught was true.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:21 commands us:

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

That is exactly what we should be doing here at Biblical Truth Forum.

Please be careful about trusting Christian Questions, sharing their studies, or allowing their teachings to shape your understanding of Scripture.

Our faith must rest on the Word of God, not on Charles Taze Russell, the Watchtower movement, independent Bible Students, or any other teacher or organization.

The question is not whether a ministry calls itself Christian. The question is whether it teaches the Christ revealed in Scripture and the gospel He gave us.

 

[David]

Hi everyone. I shared David's reply to christian questions dot com and invited them to our forum but I don't think they will. If you go to part 2 link, they posted a lengthy comment.

I also responded to them on their website and this is what I say:

Christian Questions, I have read your explanation, but I believe you are still making Scripture say something it does not say.

You spend considerable time explaining the Greek word krisis, but the meaning of that word does not establish your doctrine. Yes, it means judgment. But where does Scripture say that this judgment involves resurrecting unbelievers and giving them an opportunity to repent and receive salvation after death?

Look at John 5 in context. In verse 24, Jesus says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Then, in verses 28-29, He describes two resurrections: "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Whether you translate krisis as judgment or condemnation, Jesus never says those raised for judgment will be given another opportunity to believe. You are adding that to His words.

You also appeal to Hebrews 9:27, which says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Again, where does that passage say judgment is a period of learning, repentance, and an opportunity for salvation? It doesn't. You have taken the word judgment and inserted an entire teaching into it.

You quote Isaiah 26:9 about the inhabitants of the world learning righteousness when God's judgments are in the earth. But that passage says nothing about resurrected unbelievers being taught the gospel after death. In fact, Isaiah 26:10 warns that even when favor is shown to the wicked, "yet will he not learn righteousness." You cannot ignore that context.

You also quote 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." But Paul is discussing the resurrection, not promising everyone a future opportunity to receive salvation. In verses 23-24, he continues by explaining the order of resurrection and Christ's final victory. You cannot use verse 22 to establish something Paul never teaches there.

And 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us of God's desire for all to be saved and Christ giving Himself as a ransom for all. I believe that. But God's desire for people to be saved does not establish that those who die in unbelief will receive another opportunity after death. John 3:18 plainly tells us that the person who does not believe in Christ is condemned already.

I also notice that your argument relies heavily on the idea that everyone must receive what you call a "fair, uncontaminated opportunity." But where does Scripture establish that requirement? We must be careful not to build doctrine around what we believe God ought to do rather than what He has revealed He will do.

You have explained at length what you believe happens after the resurrection, but you have not shown where Jesus or His apostles actually taught it.

So I would like you to answer one question directly.

Where does Scripture explicitly teach that people who die without believing in Christ will be resurrected, taught the gospel, and then given an opportunity to repent and receive eternal life?

If this is truly God's plan for billions of people, surely we should be able to establish it from Scripture rather than constructing it from the possible meanings of Greek words and passages that never actually describe it.

I am not questioning God's mercy or justice. I am questioning whether the doctrine you are teaching is found in His Word.

That is the issue we need to settle.

 

[bobinfaith]

A Serious Warning to BTF Members About Christian Questions and Its Connection to the Watchtower Movement​

BTF members, I want to warn everyone about a website called Christian Questions (ChristianQuestions.com). Before you trust their Bible studies or share their teachings with others, you need to understand where this ministry comes from and what it actually believes.

Christian Questions comes from the Bible Students movement, which originated with Charles Taze Russell in the late 1800s. This is the same religious movement that produced the Watchtower organization and eventually Jehovah's Witnesses.

Russell helped establish the Watch Tower Society in 1881. After his death in 1916, the movement divided. Those who remained under Joseph Rutherford's leadership eventually adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931. Others separated from the Watchtower organization and continued independently as Bible Students, retaining many of Russell's original teachings.

Christian Questions identifies with these independent Bible Students.

Let me be clear. The Watchtower organization and Jehovah's Witnesses promote false teachings that contradict Scripture, particularly concerning the identity of Jesus Christ. And while Christian Questions is not the same organization as today's Jehovah's Witnesses, it comes from the same religious roots and teaches some of the same serious doctrinal errors.

But I don't want anyone to reject this ministry simply because of its history. The real question is whether what they teach agrees with God's Word.

And when we examine their teachings, we find some very serious problems.

First, they deny that Jesus Christ is God.

Christian Questions teaches that Jesus was God's first creation, that He existed before coming into the world, and that He was not deity. They also promote the interpretation of John 1:1 that says the Word was "a god."

But John 1:1 says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Thomas addressed Jesus in John 20:28 as "My Lord and my God."

Hebrews 1:8 says concerning the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

And Colossians 2:9 declares, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

These are not minor differences of interpretation. We are talking about the very identity of Jesus Christ.

Second, they deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

They teach that the Holy Spirit is God's power or influence rather than a distinct person.

Yet Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 13:2), teaches (John 14:26), can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), and can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4).

The Bible does not describe the Holy Spirit as merely an impersonal force.

Third, they teach that people who die without Christ can receive an opportunity for salvation after the resurrection.

This is the very issue we have been discussing here at BTF.

Christian Questions teaches that most of humanity will be resurrected during Christ's kingdom and given an opportunity to learn righteousness, obey God, and receive everlasting life.

But where does Jesus teach this?

John 5:28-29 describes two resurrections, one unto life and the other unto judgment. Jesus never says those raised for judgment will then receive their first opportunity to repent and be saved.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

It does not say that after death comes another opportunity for salvation.

And John 3:36 plainly warns that those who do not believe the Son remain under God's wrath.

Christian Questions attempts to build an entire future plan of salvation around passages that never actually teach it.

Fourth, they reject everlasting conscious punishment.

They teach that the wicked will ultimately be destroyed in the sense of ceasing to exist.

But Jesus said in Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Revelation 14:11 describes torment whose smoke ascends forever and ever, with no rest day or night.

These passages must be taken seriously. We cannot redefine biblical words to make difficult passages disappear.

BTF members, here is why I am bringing this to your attention.

Christian Questions presents itself as a Bible-centered ministry. They quote Scripture frequently, explain Greek words, produce professional Bible studies, and speak about God's love, mercy, and justice.

But quoting Scripture does not automatically mean someone is teaching the truth.

Remember, Satan himself quoted Scripture when tempting Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7. The problem was not that the words came from Scripture. The problem was how they were being used.

Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4 about those who preach "another Jesus."

And in Galatians 1:8 he wrote:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

We cannot treat false teaching about the identity of Christ and the way of salvation as though these were harmless differences of opinion.

I am not saying that everyone who listens to Christian Questions understands or accepts these doctrines. Nor am I claiming to know the hearts of Rick, Jonathan, or anyone associated with their ministry.

But their teachings must be judged by Scripture, and the errors concerning Jesus Christ and salvation are serious enough that I cannot recommend this ministry as a trustworthy source of biblical instruction.

This is especially important for new Christians who may not yet recognize the difference between someone quoting Scripture and someone correctly teaching it.

Acts 17:11 tells us that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily to determine whether what they were being taught was true.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:21 commands us:

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

That is exactly what we should be doing here at Biblical Truth Forum.

Please be careful about trusting Christian Questions, sharing their studies, or allowing their teachings to shape your understanding of Scripture.

Our faith must rest on the Word of God, not on Charles Taze Russell, the Watchtower movement, independent Bible Students, or any other teacher or organization.

The question is not whether a ministry calls itself Christian. The question is whether it teaches the Christ revealed in Scripture and the gospel He gave us.

I also responded to them on their website and this is what I say:

Christian Questions, I have read your explanation, but I believe you are still making Scripture say something it does not say.

You spend considerable time explaining the Greek word krisis, but the meaning of that word does not establish your doctrine. Yes, it means judgment. But where does Scripture say that this judgment involves resurrecting unbelievers and giving them an opportunity to repent and receive salvation after death?

Look at John 5 in context. In verse 24, Jesus says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Then, in verses 28-29, He describes two resurrections: "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Whether you translate krisis as judgment or condemnation, Jesus never says those raised for judgment will be given another opportunity to believe. You are adding that to His words.

You also appeal to Hebrews 9:27, which says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Again, where does that passage say judgment is a period of learning, repentance, and an opportunity for salvation? It doesn't. You have taken the word judgment and inserted an entire teaching into it.

You quote Isaiah 26:9 about the inhabitants of the world learning righteousness when God's judgments are in the earth. But that passage says nothing about resurrected unbelievers being taught the gospel after death. In fact, Isaiah 26:10 warns that even when favor is shown to the wicked, "yet will he not learn righteousness." You cannot ignore that context.

You also quote 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." But Paul is discussing the resurrection, not promising everyone a future opportunity to receive salvation. In verses 23-24, he continues by explaining the order of resurrection and Christ's final victory. You cannot use verse 22 to establish something Paul never teaches there.

And 1 Timothy 2:4-6 tells us of God's desire for all to be saved and Christ giving Himself as a ransom for all. I believe that. But God's desire for people to be saved does not establish that those who die in unbelief will receive another opportunity after death. John 3:18 plainly tells us that the person who does not believe in Christ is condemned already.

I also notice that your argument relies heavily on the idea that everyone must receive what you call a "fair, uncontaminated opportunity." But where does Scripture establish that requirement? We must be careful not to build doctrine around what we believe God ought to do rather than what He has revealed He will do.

You have explained at length what you believe happens after the resurrection, but you have not shown where Jesus or His apostles actually taught it.

So I would like you to answer one question directly.

Where does Scripture explicitly teach that people who die without believing in Christ will be resurrected, taught the gospel, and then given an opportunity to repent and receive eternal life?

If this is truly God's plan for billions of people, surely we should be able to establish it from Scripture rather than constructing it from the possible meanings of Greek words and passages that never actually describe it.

I am not questioning God's mercy or justice. I am questioning whether the doctrine you are teaching is found in His Word.

That is the issue we need to settle.

Good morning, David;

That's quite an outline you posted and rightfully so. Speaking for ourselves, Hazel and I remain watchful with the large ocean of Bible discussion on the internet.

This is why we prefer to read / hear teaching, opinions and inquiries directly to or from a brother or sister. This gives us room for receiving, praying, referring to the Scriptures and most of all, fellowship.

Overall, this is an excellent topic that Rose initiated, Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

God bless you, David, and thank you.

Bob

 

[David]

A beautiful response above ...

In the Parable of the Sower (found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8), the "three soils" that fail to produce fruit represent three distinct negative responses to the Word of God or the Gospel, contrasting with the fourth "good soil" that yields a harvest.

1. The Path (Hardened Soil): This represents a heart that is impervious to truth due to unbelief or hardness of heart. The hearer receives the message but does not understand it, allowing Satan (represented by birds) to snatch it away before it can take root.
2. The Rocky Soil (Shallow Soil): This depicts those who receive the word with joy and initial enthusiasm but have no spiritual depth. When tribulation, persecution, or trouble arises because of the word, they quickly fall away because they lack a deep root system.
3. The Thorny Soil (Choked Soil): This illustrates those who hear the word, but it is choked by the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things. These worldly pursuits compete for the hearer's time and attention, making the word unfruitful despite initial growth.

Collectively, these three soils signify a failure to produce spiritual fruit, which many interpretations view as evidence that the individual was never truly saved or has abandoned their faith, whereas only the good soil results in eternal life and a hundredfold harvest

Verses often cited for the possibility of forfeiting salvation:

• Hebrews 6:4–6 — "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift… and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
• Hebrews 10:26–27 — "If we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment."
• 2 Peter 2:20–21 — "Those who escape the world's pollution through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but then get entangled in it again and are overcome, their final state is worse than the first."
• Galatians 5:4 — "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
• Matthew 7:21–23 — "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom… and then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you.'"

Verses cited on the other side (assurance of salvation):

• John 10:28–29 — "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."
• Romans 8:38–39 — Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.
• Romans 11:29 — "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

I believe the Parable of the Sower is important to this discussion, but we need to be careful about what Jesus actually teaches in it.

In Luke 8:13, Jesus says those represented by the rocky soil "for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." But He does not say they were born again, received eternal life, and then lost it.

The same applies to the thorny soil. They hear the Word, but the cares and pleasures of this life choke it, and they bring no fruit to perfection.

Now compare that with the good soil in Luke 8:15. Jesus describes those who receive the Word, keep it, and "bring forth fruit with patience."

There is a difference between someone responding to the gospel and someone genuinely being born again. Jesus warned in Matthew 7:23 that He would say to some who professed to know Him, "I never knew you." Notice He did not say, "I once knew you, but you lost your salvation."

We also cannot ignore John 10:27-28, where Jesus says His sheep hear His voice, follow Him, and "shall never perish."

The warnings in Hebrews are serious and must never be dismissed. But neither should we assume that every person described as falling away was once genuinely saved.

I also noticed you included Romans 11:29 about the gifts and calling of God being without repentance. We need to remember that Paul is discussing God's promises concerning Israel in that chapter, not directly answering whether an individual believer can lose salvation.

So I believe we still need to answer the central question: Where does Scripture actually teach that someone who has been born again, received eternal life, and become one of Christ's sheep can later perish?

We cannot settle that question simply by listing verses used on both sides. We need to examine what those verses actually say in their context and allow Scripture to explain Scripture.

 

[David]

It’s good to hear from you again, Rose. While the King James Version translates the end of verse 29 as the “resurrection of damnation,” nearly all modern translations (such as the NASB, ESV, and ASV) translate it accurately as the “resurrection of judgment.” This word translated ‘judgment’ (or ‘damnation’) is the Greek noun krisis (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #2920). Krisis does not mean a pre-determined sentence or instantaneous execution of doom; lexical definitions show it means a trial, a process of investigation, a contest or an evaluation. It is the root of our English word “crisis,” describing a critical turning point where the outcome could go either way.

The “resurrection of life” applies to Christ’s faithful followers who have already undergone their trial and testing during this present Gospel Age (“judgment begins at the household of God,” 1 Peter 4:17). They receive life immediately upon resurrection. The “resurrection of judgment” applies to the rest of humanity. They are awakened not to be immediately condemned for sins inherited from Adam, but to enter a period of trial, learning and accountability under the righteous rule of Christ’s kingdom. As Isaiah 26:9 explains, “When the earth experiences Your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

I think the way they are using krisis here doesn’t line up with how the bible actually uses it in this passage, Jesus just said in the same chapter that the one who hears his word and believes does not come into krisis but has passed from death to life ~John 5:24, so the krisis he speaks of is the condemnation the unbeliever is already under and will face. When he gets to the two resurrections he puts the resurrection of life right next to the resurrection of krisis for those who have done evil ~John 5:29, and the deeds are already done, they have done good or they have done evil, not that they are about to enter a new period of trial where the outcome can still go either way.

The word can mean a decision or a separating, but in this context and in John’s use of it elsewhere it carries the force of the adverse judgment, the same way he uses it for the condemnation that has already come on the one who does not believe ~John 3:18-19. Lexical notes that treat the resurrection of krisis as followed by condemnation are simply following the contrast Jesus himself set up, life on one side and judgment that ends in condemnation on the other. It is not a neutral crisis that could go either way after death.

Isaiah 26:9 is talking about God’s judgments while people are still in the earth, the kind of judgments that sometimes lead the living to learn righteousness, it is not describing what happens to those who are raised to the resurrection of judgment. Scripture is clear that it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment ~Hebrews 9:27, and when the dead are raised they are judged according to what they have done, and anyone not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire ~Revelation 20:12-15. There is no second probationary age given in the bible where the rest of humanity gets awakened to learn and then decide. The outcome is already fixed by what they did and by whether their name is in the book of life.

 

[David]

Hebrews 9:27 states: “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment…” Notice that the writer uses the exact same word: krisis (#2920). The text states that after death comes judgment (a trial) — it does not state that after death all opportunity to learn and obey God is forever closed. The broader context of Hebrews 9–10 describes how Jesus offered himself once for all to put away sin. Because of Adam’s disobedience, all of humanity inherited death (“in Adam all die,” 1 Corinthians 15:22). Because of Jesus’ corresponding ransom price, “even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

We completely agree that Scripture does not promise a “second chance” to someone who has already received a full, spirit-begotten knowledge of the truth and willfully rejected Christ (Hebrews 6:4–6, 10:26–29). However, for the vast majority of human history — the billions who lived and died before Jesus, infants, the mentally challenged or those who never heard the gospel and born in the wrong time in the wrong place to the wrong family — they have never had their first genuine opportunity.

The material you posted adds what the bible does not say, John 5:29 sets those who have done good unto the resurrection of life over against those who have done evil unto the resurrection of krisis, it does not open a new period of learning after they rise. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment, and the chapter puts that next to Christ offered once ~Hebrews 9:27-28. 1 Corinthians 15:22 is limited by the next verse to they that are Christ’s at his coming ~1 Corinthians 15:23. The idea of billions getting their first chance after death is not in the scriptures, and when the bible is silent we stop.

 

[undauntedLOBA]

yes definitely a christain can lose his or her salvation by nailing christ on the cross again through the act of SIN and Grieving of the holy spirit such christain will have to go back on the feet of christ once again by asking for mercy. where is the feet of christ which is the cross for another rebirt and salvation

Hey everyone, I came across this 2-part study on whether a Christian can lose their salvation and wanted to see what you guys think.

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part I) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Can Christians lose their salvation? Explore Hebrews 10:26 and what “sinning willfully” means, along with the path of true discipleship.

christianquestions.com

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? (Part II) - Christian Questions Bible Podcast

Part II explores how we can guard our salvation through faithfulness, free will and holding fast to God’s calling.

christianquestions.com

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[by grace]

anything connected to false doctrine . such as j.w Mormon etc advertising should not be allowed imo

 

[Yesua888]

A Serious Warning to BTF Members About Christian Questions and Its Connection to the Watchtower Movement​

BTF members, I want to warn everyone about a website called Christian Questions (ChristianQuestions.com). Before you trust their Bible studies or share their teachings with others, you need to understand where this ministry comes from and what it actually believes.

Christian Questions comes from the Bible Students movement, which originated with Charles Taze Russell in the late 1800s. This is the same religious movement that produced the Watchtower organization and eventually Jehovah's Witnesses.

Russell helped establish the Watch Tower Society in 1881. After his death in 1916, the movement divided. Those who remained under Joseph Rutherford's leadership eventually adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931. Others separated from the Watchtower organization and continued independently as Bible Students, retaining many of Russell's original teachings.

Christian Questions identifies with these independent Bible Students.

Let me be clear. The Watchtower organization and Jehovah's Witnesses promote false teachings that contradict Scripture, particularly concerning the identity of Jesus Christ. And while Christian Questions is not the same organization as today's Jehovah's Witnesses, it comes from the same religious roots and teaches some of the same serious doctrinal errors.

But I don't want anyone to reject this ministry simply because of its history. The real question is whether what they teach agrees with God's Word.

And when we examine their teachings, we find some very serious problems.

First, they deny that Jesus Christ is God.

Christian Questions teaches that Jesus was God's first creation, that He existed before coming into the world, and that He was not deity. They also promote the interpretation of John 1:1 that says the Word was "a god."

But John 1:1 says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Thomas addressed Jesus in John 20:28 as "My Lord and my God."

Hebrews 1:8 says concerning the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

And Colossians 2:9 declares, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

These are not minor differences of interpretation. We are talking about the very identity of Jesus Christ.

Second, they deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

They teach that the Holy Spirit is God's power or influence rather than a distinct person.

Yet Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 13:2), teaches (John 14:26), can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), and can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4).

The Bible does not describe the Holy Spirit as merely an impersonal force.

Third, they teach that people who die without Christ can receive an opportunity for salvation after the resurrection.

This is the very issue we have been discussing here at BTF.

Christian Questions teaches that most of humanity will be resurrected during Christ's kingdom and given an opportunity to learn righteousness, obey God, and receive everlasting life.

But where does Jesus teach this?

John 5:28-29 describes two resurrections, one unto life and the other unto judgment. Jesus never says those raised for judgment will then receive their first opportunity to repent and be saved.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

It does not say that after death comes another opportunity for salvation.

And John 3:36 plainly warns that those who do not believe the Son remain under God's wrath.

Christian Questions attempts to build an entire future plan of salvation around passages that never actually teach it.

Fourth, they reject everlasting conscious punishment.

They teach that the wicked will ultimately be destroyed in the sense of ceasing to exist.

But Jesus said in Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Revelation 14:11 describes torment whose smoke ascends forever and ever, with no rest day or night.

These passages must be taken seriously. We cannot redefine biblical words to make difficult passages disappear.

BTF members, here is why I am bringing this to your attention.

Christian Questions presents itself as a Bible-centered ministry. They quote Scripture frequently, explain Greek words, produce professional Bible studies, and speak about God's love, mercy, and justice.

But quoting Scripture does not automatically mean someone is teaching the truth.

Remember, Satan himself quoted Scripture when tempting Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7. The problem was not that the words came from Scripture. The problem was how they were being used.

Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11:4 about those who preach "another Jesus."

And in Galatians 1:8 he wrote:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

We cannot treat false teaching about the identity of Christ and the way of salvation as though these were harmless differences of opinion.

I am not saying that everyone who listens to Christian Questions understands or accepts these doctrines. Nor am I claiming to know the hearts of Rick, Jonathan, or anyone associated with their ministry.

But their teachings must be judged by Scripture, and the errors concerning Jesus Christ and salvation are serious enough that I cannot recommend this ministry as a trustworthy source of biblical instruction.

This is especially important for new Christians who may not yet recognize the difference between someone quoting Scripture and someone correctly teaching it.

Acts 17:11 tells us that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily to determine whether what they were being taught was true.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:21 commands us:

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

That is exactly what we should be doing here at Biblical Truth Forum.

Please be careful about trusting Christian Questions, sharing their studies, or allowing their teachings to shape your understanding of Scripture.

Our faith must rest on the Word of God, not on Charles Taze Russell, the Watchtower movement, independent Bible Students, or any other teacher or organization.

The question is not whether a ministry calls itself Christian. The question is whether it teaches the Christ revealed in Scripture and the gospel He gave us.

Hi David,
I see you are out there doing God's Work and exposing False Teachings
It is a good thing that this "Christian" site has been exposed for changing Jesus's Identity ... we will fight against this!
Jesus is the Way to The Father and to Eternal Life ... it is Written.
Thank you for highlighting where Jesus's ID has been altered ... as you said, satan was (and still is) subtle and used scripture cleverly to deceive, as he did in the beginning.
Christians of Jesus Christ ("in Jesus"), stay alert : )

 

[Yesua888]

Amazing teachings, thank you David:

Here's the "subtlety": 'You also quote 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."'
"even so", to me this muddies what was actually written

The Berean Standard Bible (BSB) text for 1 Corinthians 15:22 is: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."
to me this is clear that we need to be "In Christ" (no ambiguity here)

Indeed 'Where does Scripture explicitly teach that people who die without believing in Christ will be resurrected, taught the gospel, and then given an opportunity to repent and receive eternal life?'

I agree that these subtleties change the meaning (not "obviously"), they allow for misinterpretation or ambiguity; soften the Word!

 

[Yesua888]

anything connected to false doctrine . such as j.w Mormon etc advertising should not be allowed imo

I agree with what you say by grace, however, many of us are learning so much from this ... the "subtleties", the small "insignificant" changes that so many of us miss ... God is Good : )

 

[Rose]

anything connected to false doctrine . such as j.w Mormon etc advertising should not be allowed imo

@by grace. The reason I shared the links was because I had issues with their contents and was asking for what your thoughts are. I never knew that it is related to jw. So grateful to David for exposing them. Thank you, David. Btw, should I delete this thread?

 

[bobinfaith]

@by grace. The reason I shared the links was because I had issues with their contents and was asking for what your thoughts are. I never knew that it is related to jw. So grateful to David for exposing them. Thank you, David. Btw, should I delete this thread?

Good morning, everyone;

We should keep this OP open so all readers on the world wide public besides members be watchful of false deceptions that misguide our salvation. At the same time we all should reflect daily and embrace God's free gift.

Thank you, Rose, for opening this topic.

God bless you, and your family.

Bob

 

[by grace]

David posed an important question, "If Jesus says His sheep shall never perish, how do we understand the warnings about those who fall away? Were they genuinely born again and then lost their salvation, or did their departure reveal that they never truly belonged to Christ?"

i try to go by this scripture .

​

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us....


Calvinist hold to pos preservernce of saints.. those truly saved will stick with it. they may wander off but they will return.


i am grateful i have advocate and grateful for grace had we been under law . it would be burnt toast for us .

i do hold to the security of our salvation . i have hard time with someone who docent seem to make any attempt

Good morning, everyone;

We should keep this OP open so all readers on the world wide public besides members be watchful of false deceptions that misguide our salvation. At the same time we all should reflect daily and embrace God's free gift.

Thank you, Rose, for opening this topic.

God bless you, and your family.

Bob

the topic yes the link or web page to it no

 

[David]

@by grace. The reason I shared the links was because I had issues with their contents and was asking for what your thoughts are. I never knew that it is related to jw. So grateful to David for exposing them. Thank you, David. Btw, should I delete this thread?

No, I am glad you posted it. Gave us time to see that, even if it says it is Christian, it really is not.

 

[David]

i have hard time with someone who docent seem to make any attempt

Titus 1:16 directly addresses that: “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate” (KJV). Someone can claim to know God while denying that claim by how they live.

Jesus said, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Calling Jesus “Lord” is not a substitute for obeying Him. First John 2:3–4 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

That does not mean Christians never sin. John also wrote, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). There is a difference between struggling against sin and making excuses to continue in it without repentance.

We are saved by grace through faith, “not of works” (Ephesians 2:8–9), but the next verse says we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (verse 10). Good works do not purchase salvation, but a profession of faith without any concern for obeying Christ should not be treated as proof that someone is saved.

 

[Yesua888]

@by grace. The reason I shared the links was because I had issues with their contents and was asking for what your thoughts are. I never knew that it is related to jw. So grateful to David for exposing them. Thank you, David. Btw, should I delete this thread?

Rose,
In my opinion, you should continue to question and to share. Had you not shared this, none of us would have been any the wiser. It is this kind of sharing that teaches all of us so much : )
David teaches a lot about False Teachings ... and what better way to see things first hand, than through an example like this one.
This is how Scripture comes "Alive" for me, anyway : )
In my case, I still miss things, carelessly put my foot into "it" without checking properly, and then feel silly, wondering whether to take my comment down. I believe that this is a "safe" place where we can learn together, knowing that God is present, right here with us.
I too am so grateful for David's interventions and corrections, and I trust him implicitly; his heart is for Christ; he is not here for self-gain.
There is no other forum that I know of, where the founder is on top of things, and is truly committed to Biblical Truth.

 

[Rose]

Rose,
In my opinion, you should continue to question and to share. Had you not shared this, none of us would have been any the wiser. It is this kind of sharing that teaches all of us so much : )
David teaches a lot about False Teachings ... and what better way to see things first hand, than through an example like this one.
This is how Scripture comes "Alive" for me, anyway : )
In my case, I still miss things, carelessly put my foot into "it" without checking properly, and then feel silly, wondering whether to take my comment down. I believe that this is a "safe" place where we can learn together, knowing that God is present, right here with us.
I too am so grateful for David's interventions and corrections, and I trust him implicitly; his heart is for Christ; he is not here for self-gain.
There is no other forum that I know of, where the founder is on top of things, and is truly committed to Biblical Truth.

@Yesua888 Thank you. Your message really lifted my spirits. I appreciate your kindness and I'm very grateful for this safe space to learn and grow alongside everyone here.