Do you feel like getting closer to God has made you question the value of organized religion? Why or why not?

[David]

I came across this post on Reddit and thought it would be interesting to hear how others would respond. I’m planning to share my own thoughts on it too.

As I have gotten older and gotten closer to God I have learned I don't really believe in religion anymore.

The whole Calvinists vs Arminian, Catholic vs Protestant, it is all just a load of malarkey and ultimately doesn't matter.

I think as long as one believes Christ is their Savior, that's it. The rest will come with time and faith. They will sin less and have a better life. Multiple things can be true at the same time even if it is paradoxical to us, meaning the differences in denominations are essentially meaningless.

Religion is just a very perverse way to control a population in my opinion. And I'm not necessarily calling out denomination or people who belong to a denomination, but I am calling out the people who think that only people who believe the same as them go to Heaven.

 

[David]

This was my response, what do you think:

---

I hear your frustration with the divisions and dogma in organized religion, it can feel like a lot of noise that misses the heart of faith. Your focus on Christ as Savior being the core resonates with a lot of people who’ve wrestled with these same issues. It’s like you’re saying the labels and debates are secondary to a real, personal connection to Christ, and I agree, a relationship with Jesus is the foundation. But here’s the thing, the Bible doesn’t leave room for a “choose your own truth” approach. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). That means not everything can be true at the same time, even if it feels paradoxical to us.

Yes, religious systems often twist Scripture and divide people, but that doesn’t mean truth is unknowable or that doctrine is meaningless. God gave us His Word so we wouldn’t be tossed around by every wind of teaching (Ephesians 4:14). There is one gospel, one faith, and one truth (Ephesians 4:4–6), and anything that contradicts the Word of God is not just a harmless difference, it’s deception. Paul warned in Galatians 1:8 that even if an angel preaches another gospel, they are accursed.

When the Bible talks about “sound doctrine,” it means teaching that lines up with Scripture alone, not tradition, opinion, or church systems. That’s what Sola Scriptura means, that the Bible is the final authority in all matters of truth and faith. Second Timothy 3:16–17 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. If it’s not rooted in the Bible, it’s not sound doctrine.

So while I get why you’d call some of it perverse, especially when people weaponize religion to control or exclude, we still have a responsibility to know what God has actually said. Real faith isn’t about joining a side or defending a denomination, it’s about knowing the real Jesus and following Him according to His Word. Truth matters because eternity is real. So the goal isn’t to avoid all doctrine, it’s to hold to sound doctrine, meaning the Bible alone, and throw out the man-made noise. Have you been able to stay grounded in Scripture itself without getting tangled in the mess of religion?

 

[PLANofMAN]

I think it was generated by an A.I. Chatbot.

Doesn't make it any less true, but it's overly wordy, and more spectacle than substance, imo.

 

[David]

I think it was generated by an A.I. Chatbot.

Doesn't make it any less true, but it's overly wordy, and more spectacle than substance, imo.

That’s fair, I did use some help organizing my thoughts, but everything I said is rooted in Scripture, and I meant every word of it. I know it’s a bit longer than most posts, but I really wanted to be clear and thorough. I definitely wasn’t trying to be flashy, just honest about what the Bible actually says. I appreciate your feedback, though, and if anything stood out to you as off or worth discussing, I’m open to hearing it.

So what would you say to the OP?

 

[PLANofMAN]

That’s fair, I did use some help organizing my thoughts, but everything I said is rooted in Scripture, and I meant every word of it. I know it’s a bit longer than most posts, but I really wanted to be clear and thorough. I definitely wasn’t trying to be flashy, just honest about what the Bible actually says. I appreciate your feedback, though, and if anything stood out to you as off or worth discussing, I’m open to hearing it.

So what would you say to the OP?

I didn't reply directly to the OP in that reddit thread, but I did reply to a fellow who was quoting James 1:27 to make a point, which I'll post below.

As for the OP's post, I agree with them, though I think he/she would have been better served to replace the word religion with "religiosity," "denominationalism" or "ritualism":

We translate the original Greek word

> θρησκεία (thrēskeía) as 'religion.'

It's defined as referring to religious worship, especially outward ceremonial observance, ritual, or religious practice.

In James 1:26–27, the term is used critically to distinguish between mere outward religion (or religiosity) in verse 26, and true, Godly practice in verse 27. It is talking about structured or observable religious behavior, not personal faith.

Greek Text (opening phrase v.27):

> Θρησκεία καθαρὰ καὶ ἀμίαντος
Religion pure and undefiled

James is redefining the concept; not as ritual or formality, but as active compassion and moral integrity. James critiques empty religiosity (1:26) and then redefines "pure religion" as practical care and personal holiness. Reusing the word "religion" in verse 27 shows that James is not 'discarding' religion, but clarifying and defining it's meaning.

If your church isn't helping orphans and old folks (or doing other community improvement outreach programs), and calling on its membership to lead blameless and holy lives, then it isn't being a "real" church. As my pastor once said, "As a pastor, I am called to be a 'fisher of men,' not to be 'the keeper of the aquarium.'"

Just to recap, here's James 1:26, 27

“If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

Doing 'Christian role-play' for an hour or two once every week isn't what is meant by the word 'religion' in verse 27.

 

[David]

If your church isn't helping orphans and old folks (or doing other community improvement outreach programs), and calling on its membership to lead blameless and holy lives, then it isn't being a "real" church. As my pastor once said, "As a pastor, I am called to be a 'fisher of men,' not to be 'the keeper of the aquarium.'"

I agree with you completely. A church which fails to care for orphans, widows, the elderly, and the needy and doesn’t call its members to holy and blameless lives violates the teachings of God’s Word. James 1: According to James 1:27 pure religion requires caring for fatherless children and widows in their suffering while maintaining personal purity from worldly influences. Pure religion requires active service to others and personal moral purity. Instead of serving as a refuge of comfort and habit, the church exists to function as a dynamic entity that follows Jesus while ministering to those who haven’t yet found faith and living righteously. I liked the way your pastor reminded us that our mission involves catching men rather than managing the aquarium. When a church fails to prepare its members to follow Jesus and serve others while obeying His Word they have completely missed their purpose.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello everyone;

These are my thoughts. We can never fathom our God whose ways are beyond our reach, but He loves us unconditionally and wants us to know, learn and grow in our relationship with Him. The Bible, prayer, praise / worship, listening, unlimited, is God's infinite way for us to understand and draw closer to Him.

Yes, it challenges us to dig deeper, but God will equip us with wisdom and knowledge while speaking to us through His Word. It's a discipline, or discipleship; the more we search Him the more He reveals.

Truth is, our freedom of speech in social platforms allow non-believers, nominal and even seasoned Christians to express, critique religion, denoms, doctrines, or making it up as they go along, etc...to justify Christian faith and discipleship "their way" instead of His Way.

Sad, but people get a rush in these squabbles. Did I win the argument, get the last word, or is my point impressive? This is lazy.

We use too many human experiences and Christianese words that lead to our failure from "people and charismatic" versions of spiritual growth instead of allowing ourselves to experience God, Son and Spirit growth.

These are my thoughts but come with lessons. When my brother and sister present their views on Christ, being still, listening, praying, referring to the Scriptures and asking God, is a benefit to help me continue learning and growing for His glory.

God bless everyone, thank you and Merry Christmas.

bobinfaith

 

[David]

I came from "religiosity" as it is named here. I even became a leader in it in being a Reverend in the Dutch Reformed Church. And then came the crisis which God used to remove me from that system and enter me into The Brotherhood. The introduction to my spiritual Growth was by a Brother who gave me my Milk to drink. Theology or "religiosity" never gave me any Spiritual Growth. But the Brothers whom I met brought that to me. Thus I found the Love of the Holy Spirit from our "Abba Father/Daddy" in the Brotherhood. As oppose to the dead life of Adam I lived in being "honored/worshiped" as Reverend. And I met practically with the Words of Jehovah who spoke in Jesus the warning to not be called "Rabbi" because we are all "Brothers".

Thank you for posting your heart. I can sense the Lord really brought you through to the other side, and it is always encouraging to hear when someone goes from empty religious forms to a true walk with Christ. Psalm 133 is a beautiful reminder of what God has always desired for His people. True unity is good and pleasant because it comes from the Lord. It is like the anointing oil that ran down Aaron's beard and like the refreshing dew on Hermon. Wherever God's people walk together in truth and humility, He commands His blessing ~Psalm 133:1–3.

At the same time, I know we are all facing the reality that many of our leaders today simply cannot handle the Scriptures faithfully. That makes it very hard to know who to trust. I know that burden, and it is one I have been wrestling through myself as well.

For me, the one constant has been remaining anchored in what God has spoken. When unity grows out of obedience to His Word, it is strong. When it grows out of human ideas, it always breaks down. So I appreciate your desire for real fellowship, and I also want to keep holding everything to the standard of Scripture, because that is where the blessing of unity truly rests.

Grace to you.

 

[David]

Hello everyone;

These are my thoughts. We can never fathom our God whose ways are beyond our reach, but He loves us unconditionally and wants us to know, learn and grow in our relationship with Him. The Bible, prayer, praise / worship, listening, unlimited, is God's infinite way for us to understand and draw closer to Him.

Yes, it challenges us to dig deeper, but God will equip us with wisdom and knowledge while speaking to us through His Word. It's a discipline, or discipleship; the more we search Him the more He reveals.

Truth is, our freedom of speech in social platforms allow non-believers, nominal and even seasoned Christians to express, critique religion, denoms, doctrines, or making it up as they go along, etc...to justify Christian faith and discipleship "their way" instead of His Way.

Sad, but people get a rush in these squabbles. Did I win the argument, get the last word, or is my point impressive? This is lazy.

We use too many human experiences and Christianese words that lead to our failure from "people and charismatic" versions of spiritual growth instead of allowing ourselves to experience God, Son and Spirit growth.

These are my thoughts but come with lessons. When my brother and sister present their views on Christ, being still, listening, praying, referring to the Scriptures and asking God, is a benefit to help me continue learning and growing for His glory.

God bless everyone, thank you and Merry Christmas.

bobinfaith

Thanks for your concern to see people have a genuine relationship with God rather than just a skin deep religion. The Bible does call us to seek Him and to grow in wisdom and you are right that He uses His Word to conform us to the image of Christ as we approach Him ~James 4:8; ~1 Peter 2:2.

I also agree with your assessment of the online world. Freedom of speech allows for anyone to speak into matters of the Spirit whether they know the truth or not. Paul wrote that many would abandon the sound teaching and seek out those teachers that appealed to them ~2 Timothy 4:3–4. So the reminder to stay humble, pray, and return to Scripture is good.

At the same time, I have found that biblical growth is always the result of the truth God has already spoken. Experiences can be helpful, but it is the Scriptures that teach, rebuke, and train us ~2 Timothy 3:16–17. When brothers and sisters share their ideas and point one another back to God’s Word, that is where the real fruit is found.

So thanks for the encouragement to keep listening, praying, and seeking the Lord. And at the same time, I also want to be anchored to the Word as the final authority because that is where God provides clarity and keeps us from drifting.

Grace to you

 

[Johan]

Thank you for posting your heart.

Yep, Brother. That was my heart given as we are taught by our "Abba Father/Daddy", Jehovah. Who gave His Heart in Jesus to us. Where He revealed His thoughts He carried concerning us in His Heart. And 2000 years ago He entered the earth in the body He called, "Jesus" to show us exactly who we are in His heart and mind. Thus we do the same. We don't hide our Lives in Jesus from our Brothers for the sake of being known by them for the Great Purpose of Relationships in Jesus.

I can sense the Lord really brought you through to the other side, and it is always encouraging to hear when someone goes from empty religious forms to a true walk with Christ.

You heard well, Brother. I am now existing in heaven in Jesus because that is where Daddy took us in Jesus when we got saved. We just didn't know at that stage much about it. Till we enter Spiritual Growth to know Him as He always knew us. This is then Living and Walking in Jesus to grow in Revelation of our Existence in Relationship with our Daddy, Jehovah/Yahweh.

Psalm 133 is a beautiful reminder of what God has always desired for His people. True unity is good and pleasant because it comes from the Lord. It is like the anointing oil that ran down Aaron's beard and like the refreshing dew on Hermon. Wherever God's people walk together in truth and humility, He commands His blessing ~Psalm 133:1–3.

Yep. To any father and The Father the Love Relationship between His Kids is a priority to Him to create. Unfortunately this is part of human organizations that they miss this in the "selfishness" in which they exist in strife to reject all who do not have the same opinion as them. That is just their "Baby Existence" which I also experienced when I was one of them as Reverend.

1 Cor 3: 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Many of them are saved and are "Babies of God" in not knowing much and not being much in their various religious organizations and denominations. Where they don't have the Revelation that it is "one Father" making them one in spite of their differences in opinions.

At the same time, I know we are all facing the reality that many of our leaders today simply cannot handle the Scriptures faithfully.

Yep. I was one of them. I preached what I studied. From my mind. Which is basically giving fruit from the tree of knowledge to all. Where you teach all about God. But you have nothing from the Tree of Life that you give. Nothing of more God Life that you create in them. Because you speak knowledge from your mind and don't have the ability to speak Life as a Temple of God where you listen to your Daddy and speak the Words He gives you to speak. Only these Words is His Word and create more God Life. They come from the "Belly" and not our minds.

John 7:
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

That makes it very hard to know who to trust. I know that burden, and it is one I have been wrestling through myself as well.

For me, the one constant has been remaining anchored in what God has spoken. When unity grows out of obedience to His Word, it is strong. When it grows out of human ideas, it always breaks down.

Yep. Edifying is the Power of God coming to us in raising us more in the Life of our Abba Father/Daddy, Jehovah. When we experience Growth we know it is from a Real Teacher speaking to us in creating us likewise to be "Living Bibles" as Jesus was. And the Apostles were.

2 Cor. 3:
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So I appreciate your desire for real fellowship, and I also want to keep holding everything to the standard of Scripture, because that is where the blessing of unity truly rests.

Grace to you.

Yep. That is the Treasures we take to heaven. Our Relationships as Brothers and the Quality of them we created in Edifying between one another. This is the meetings in the Name of Jesus in 2 and 2 Persons which our Daddy Loves to create between all of us.

Mat. 18: 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This "Love to one another" which manifests when we meet in the Name of Jesus in 2 and 3 persons is part of the Holy Spirit we receive. I would just love to speak on these Meetings which are the only Meetings Jehovah spoke about in Jesus when He was walking the earth.

https://biblicaltruthforum.com/threads/meetings-in-the-name-of-jesus.211/

 

[Yesua888]

Hello everyone;

These are my thoughts. We can never fathom our God whose ways are beyond our reach, but He loves us unconditionally and wants us to know, learn and grow in our relationship with Him. The Bible, prayer, praise / worship, listening, unlimited, is God's infinite way for us to understand and draw closer to Him.

Yes, it challenges us to dig deeper, but God will equip us with wisdom and knowledge while speaking to us through His Word. It's a discipline, or discipleship; the more we search Him the more He reveals.

Truth is, our freedom of speech in social platforms allow non-believers, nominal and even seasoned Christians to express, critique religion, denoms, doctrines, or making it up as they go along, etc...to justify Christian faith and discipleship "their way" instead of His Way.

Sad, but people get a rush in these squabbles. Did I win the argument, get the last word, or is my point impressive? This is lazy.Bob

We use too many human experiences and Christianese words that lead to our failure from "people and charismatic" versions of spiritual growth instead of allowing ourselves to experience God, Son and Spirit growth.

These are my thoughts but come with lessons. When my brother and sister present their views on Christ, being still, listening, praying, referring to the Scriptures and asking God, is a benefit to help me continue learning and growing for His glory.

God bless everyone, thank you and Merry Christmas.

bobinfaith

Thank you Bob, May You and Your Family have a Wonderful Christmas and Safe Festive Season xx

 

[Yesua888]

Yep, Brother. That was my heart given as we are taught by our "Abba Father/Daddy", Jehovah. Who gave His Heart in Jesus to us. Where He revealed His thoughts He carried concerning us in His Heart. And 2000 years ago He entered the earth in the body He called, "Jesus" to show us exactly who we are in His heart and mind. Thus we do the same. We don't hide our Lives in Jesus from our Brothers for the sake of being known by them for the Great Purpose of Relationships in Jesus.

Thanks for that Johan,
My question will take us off topic a bit, and should be a post in itself:
The highlightened statement above, is something that has caused me a lot of confusion, especially when I pray. Could it be that Jesus is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Could it be that Jesus is the Trinity? Linda

 

[David]

My question will take us off topic a bit, and should be a post in itself:
The highlighten statement above, is something that has caused me a lot of confusion, especially when I pray. Could it be that Jesus is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Coud it be that Jesus is the Trinity?

This is a fair question, and it gets to the heart of why precision matters when we speak of God. Scripture is not vague about who God is. Jesus is not the Father. He is not the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches one God who eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not one person who shifts roles. When Jesus prayed, He prayed to the Father: “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son” ~John 17:1. That is not a man talking to Himself. That is the Son speaking to the Father. When Jesus was baptized, the Son stood in the water, the Spirit came down like a dove, and the Father spoke from heaven ~Matthew 3:16–17. All three present at the same time. Scripture settles it.

Now, Jesus does reveal the Father’s heart. He said, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” ~John 14:9. That does not mean Jesus is the Father. It means Jesus perfectly reveals Him. Hebrews tells us the Son is “the express image of his person” ~Hebrews 1:3. Image is not identity. Revelation is not replacement.

When language gets loose, confusion follows. The Bible never says the Father entered a body called Jesus. It says, “The Word was made flesh” ~John 1:14. The Son took on flesh. The Father remained Father. The Spirit remained Spirit.

So here is the anchor you can pray from without confusion. You pray to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit, exactly as Jesus taught us ~Matthew 6:9, ~Ephesians 2:18.

Your confusion is not a failure of faith. It is a signal that Scripture needs to be allowed to define God, not poetic language or heartfelt expressions. When God speaks plainly, our footing becomes firm.

Stay where the Bible stays. Speak where the Bible speaks. And when Scripture draws lines, we do not blur them. That is how clarity replaces confusion, and confidence replaces uncertainty.

 

[David]

Morning, Daddy, this is your Son, Jesus. Not that He does not know who you are but you need to say it because you don't know. And then the very important part is now to wait for His Greeting. That is Greeting in the Holy Kiss between Father and His Child in the Name of Jesus. To move on without Him greeting you is "rude", lack of Love, lack of caring for Him. And in His answer you will know The Answer to this question.

Johan, this is where you go too far and you need to be told that bluntly. It’s also where I need to call you out, because this isn’t a matter of tone or mere preference. This is a matter of crossing the lines God Himself has set.

You are distorting Scripture by taking biblical language and inserting unbiblical ideas into it. The Bible never teaches us to pray as Jesus prays, speak to God as the Son of God, or wait for some mystical greeting and kiss and inner confirmation before we continue to pray. Jesus’ teaching on prayer makes it clear He wants us to pray to the Father, and only in His name ~John 16:23; ~Matthew 6:9. Adoption makes us the children of God, but never the God of the universe ~Romans 8:15. The Bible knows nothing of “being Jesus” or “enjoying life as Jesus.” You are taking a biblical concept of union with Christ and crossing a line into identity confusion.

You are also erasing the distinctions between the persons of the Trinity. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit. Scripture repeatedly affirms their distinct persons acting simultaneously, not a single person sliding between relational roles. At Jesus’ baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is baptized, and the Spirit descends like a dove ~Matthew 3:16-17. You have turned what Scripture explicitly affirms into what Scripture explicitly denies. When Jesus prays to the Father ~John 17: 1, submits to the Father ~John 6:38, and sends the Spirit ~John 14:16-17, the Bible itself is drawing clear lines in the sand which you are erasing.

The milk and meat passages you appeal to do not give us carte blanche to introduce new spiritual techniques, secret stages of relating to God, or new experiential practices. The issue is grasping what the Spirit has revealed, not trying to know new truths He has not revealed ~Hebrews 5:12-14. There is nothing “mature” about adding new steps to prayer, new rituals to devotion, or new language to worship that God has never commanded or authorized. That’s not maturity. It is adding to God’s Word, which the Bible itself forbids ~Proverbs 30:5-6.

It’s not a matter of tone. It’s not a matter of preference or learning. It’s a matter of this line and when you cross it. Scripture is sufficient ~2 Timothy 3:16-17. When it speaks we obey, when it’s silent we are silent. To teach believers to pray as Jesus prays, identify as the Son of God, or merge their identity with Jesus is to go beyond Scripture and to lead people into dangerous confusions about who God is and who they are.

I’m calling this out because it’s important. Christ is Lord. We are His people. Those are not interchangeable categories, and the Bible never treats them as such. Do not continue with these false teachings here.

 

[Yesua888]

I agree with you and the purpose of BTF ... and thank you for keeping us on track.

However this statement below continues to confuse me as I am battling to understand what is said in the bible John 14: 7 - 9
Now, Jesus does reveal the Father’s heart. He said, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” ~John 14:9. That does not mean Jesus is the Father. It means Jesus perfectly reveals Him. Hebrews tells us the Son is “the express image of his person” ~Hebrews 1:3. Image is not identity. Revelation is not replacement.

I also realise that I need to learn how to interpret the bible correctly.
Yes there are interpretations in brackets, and I have to trust that this interpretation is correct. There are so many different bibles, and interpretations, and I guess as time goes bye, I will learn what I need to learn, about interpretations.
Besides, as you rightly point out, there are so many verses that clearly tell us about how to pray to the Father, and that the Holy Trinity is God = The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, and that Jesus goes to prepare a place for us with His Father.

I also do not want to labour this point, as I am aware that I have a lot to learn, we probably all do, and that is why we are here : )

It is also very confusing when people share their ideas of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, and it is good that you are here always, to get us back on track, thank you

 

[David]

I also realise that I need to learn how to interpret the bible correctly.
Yes there are interpretations in brackets, and I have to trust that this interpretation is correct. There are so many different bibles, and interpretations, and I guess as time goes bye, I will learn what I need to learn, about interpretations.
Besides, as you rightly point out, there are so many verses that clearly tell us about how to pray to the Father, and that the Holy Trinity is God = The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, and that Jesus goes to prepare a place for us with His Father.

I also do not want to labour this point, as I am aware that I have a lot to learn, we probably all do, and that is why we are here : )

It is also very confusing when people share their ideas of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, and it is good that you are here always, to get us back on track, thank you

Thank you for being honest, Linda, about where you are running into difficulty. God is not irritated with honest questions. He calls out for them. But stay within what the Bible actually says.

Jesus tells us in John 14: 9: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. He means: if you want to know what the Father is like, then look at Jesus. The way Jesus loves, the way he speaks, the way he forgives, the way he obeys, all of this reveals the Father’s heart. Jesus is not saying: He is the Father. He is saying: He perfectly reveals the Father to us.

Notice how Jesus explains this Himself. “The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” (John 14:10). Jesus points us to the Father, not away from the Father.

The writer of Hebrews says this same thing, in a different way. “The express image of his person” (Hebrews 1:3). An image is not the same thing as the source. An image tells you what something looks like. In this case, Jesus tells us what God is like. Because Jesus is from God, He can and does reveal God clearly to us.

But the Bible is just as clear that Jesus and the Father are not the same person. Jesus prays to the Father. “Father… this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1–3). Someone who is sent is not the same person as the One who sends. This is very simple and straightforward.

At the same time, Jesus says: “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). One in purpose. One in truth. One in holiness. Not one person, but perfectly one.

As for prayer, Scripture is very simple on this also. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. “Our Father which art in heaven” (Matthew 6:9). And He also says: “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). We go to the Father, through the Son. This pattern does not vary anywhere in the Bible.

As for interpretation, the Bible says not to rely on people’s opinions when they get beyond the text. “That ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). When ideas get added that God has not clearly said, then confusion results. That has always been the danger.

This is why Scripture says to test everything. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). The Bible is the measuring stick. It is not explanations in brackets. It is not personal ideas.

Notes and brackets can be helpful, but they are not inspired. Only Scripture is. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16). An explanation that agrees with the rest of the Bible is very useful. An explanation that does not agree with the rest of the Bible needs to be set aside.

God says he will help those who desire the truth. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine” (John 7:17). You do not need to rush. You do not need to figure everything out at once. Just stay in the Word. Read slowly. Let Scripture explain Scripture. When we pray and ask God to help us understand He does. But He never says anything contrary to what He has written.

God is faithful. “My sheep hear my voice” (John 10:27). If you are His, then He will guide you. Keep going. You are asking the right questions. You are looking in the right place.

 

[Yesua888]

Thank you for being honest, Linda, about where you are running into difficulty. God is not irritated with honest questions. He calls out for them. But stay within what the Bible actually says.

Jesus tells us in John 14: 9: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. He means: if you want to know what the Father is like, then look at Jesus. The way Jesus loves, the way he speaks, the way he forgives, the way he obeys, all of this reveals the Father’s heart. Jesus is not saying: He is the Father. He is saying: He perfectly reveals the Father to us.

Notice how Jesus explains this Himself. “The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” (John 14:10). Jesus points us to the Father, not away from the Father.

The writer of Hebrews says this same thing, in a different way. “The express image of his person” (Hebrews 1:3). An image is not the same thing as the source. An image tells you what something looks like. In this case, Jesus tells us what God is like. Because Jesus is from God, He can and does reveal God clearly to us.

But the Bible is just as clear that Jesus and the Father are not the same person. Jesus prays to the Father. “Father… this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1–3). Someone who is sent is not the same person as the One who sends. This is very simple and straightforward.

At the same time, Jesus says: “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). One in purpose. One in truth. One in holiness. Not one person, but perfectly one.

As for prayer, Scripture is very simple on this also. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. “Our Father which art in heaven” (Matthew 6:9). And He also says: “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). We go to the Father, through the Son. This pattern does not vary anywhere in the Bible.

As for interpretation, the Bible says not to rely on people’s opinions when they get beyond the text. “That ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). When ideas get added that God has not clearly said, then confusion results. That has always been the danger.

This is why Scripture says to test everything. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). The Bible is the measuring stick. It is not explanations in brackets. It is not personal ideas.

Notes and brackets can be helpful, but they are not inspired. Only Scripture is. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16). An explanation that agrees with the rest of the Bible is very useful. An explanation that does not agree with the rest of the Bible needs to be set aside.

God says he will help those who desire the truth. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine” (John 7:17). You do not need to rush. You do not need to figure everything out at once. Just stay in the Word. Read slowly. Let Scripture explain Scripture. When we pray and ask God to help us understand He does. But He never says anything contrary to what He has written.

God is faithful. “My sheep hear my voice” (John 10:27). If you are His, then He will guide you. Keep going. You are asking the right questions. You are looking in the right place.

Thank you again for taking so much time and care to educate me ... I truly appreciate what you do for the Glory of God. We are so blessed, and BTF is my "Runya" (Hewbrew: Gift from God)

 

[acex87]

I came across this post on Reddit and thought it would be interesting to hear how others would respond. I’m planning to share my own thoughts on it too.

As I have gotten older and gotten closer to God I have learned I don't really believe in religion anymore.

The whole Calvinists vs Arminian, Catholic vs Protestant, it is all just a load of malarkey and ultimately doesn't matter.

I think as long as one believes Christ is their Savior, that's it. The rest will come with time and faith. They will sin less and have a better life. Multiple things can be true at the same time even if it is paradoxical to us, meaning the differences in denominations are essentially meaningless.

Religion is just a very perverse way to control a population in my opinion. And I'm not necessarily calling out denomination or people who belong to a denomination, but I am calling out the people who think that only people who believe the same as them go to Heaven.

Jesus flatly says 'he who is not against us is for us'. I think the true focus is and should be true sincerity. If we are sincere in our hearts and in our efforts to seek and serve God, we will be successful and we will find Him. I have personally experienced truly sincere people from all denominations, and even from religions outside of Christianity for that matter. God is love and that is very evident in His creation.

I personally take heed to the warning Jesus gave:

"But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the Kingdom of Heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in." Matthew 23:13

Its clear that Jesus did not take kindly to gatekeeping from the Kingdom of God.

-Jonathan

 

[TitusTwoWife]

This was my response, what do you think:

---

I hear your frustration with the divisions and dogma in organized religion, it can feel like a lot of noise that misses the heart of faith. Your focus on Christ as Savior being the core resonates with a lot of people who’ve wrestled with these same issues. It’s like you’re saying the labels and debates are secondary to a real, personal connection to Christ, and I agree, a relationship with Jesus is the foundation. But here’s the thing, the Bible doesn’t leave room for a “choose your own truth” approach. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). That means not everything can be true at the same time, even if it feels paradoxical to us.

Yes, religious systems often twist Scripture and divide people, but that doesn’t mean truth is unknowable or that doctrine is meaningless. God gave us His Word so we wouldn’t be tossed around by every wind of teaching (Ephesians 4:14). There is one gospel, one faith, and one truth (Ephesians 4:4–6), and anything that contradicts the Word of God is not just a harmless difference, it’s deception. Paul warned in Galatians 1:8 that even if an angel preaches another gospel, they are accursed.

When the Bible talks about “sound doctrine,” it means teaching that lines up with Scripture alone, not tradition, opinion, or church systems. That’s what Sola Scriptura means, that the Bible is the final authority in all matters of truth and faith. Second Timothy 3:16–17 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. If it’s not rooted in the Bible, it’s not sound doctrine.

So while I get why you’d call some of it perverse, especially when people weaponize religion to control or exclude, we still have a responsibility to know what God has actually said. Real faith isn’t about joining a side or defending a denomination, it’s about knowing the real Jesus and following Him according to His Word. Truth matters because eternity is real. So the goal isn’t to avoid all doctrine, it’s to hold to sound doctrine, meaning the Bible alone, and throw out the man-made noise. Have you been able to stay grounded in Scripture itself without getting tangled in the mess of religion?

It is an uncomfortable thing to not have a church. But my husband and I are staking our eternity on church attendance not being required if we seek to live out the Scriptures and teach them to our children diligently. I believe just putting into practice the tenets of the faith as it is written has made us so different from those around us. There is still so much to perfect.

 

[David]

It is an uncomfortable thing to not have a church. But my husband and I are staking our eternity on church attendance not being required if we seek to live out the Scriptures and teach them to our children diligently. I believe just putting into practice the tenets of the faith as it is written has made us so different from those around us. There is still so much to perfect.

You don’t have to go to a church building, but Scripture does call us to fellowship with other believers. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together… but exhorting one another” ~Hebrews 10:25.

That’s exactly why I started this forum, so born-again believers can connect, encourage one another, and stay grounded in the Word together.

I agree we’re all growing, but I always try to keep it clear that Christ is the One who has already perfected us in our standing before God ~Hebrews 10:14. Our growth flows from that, not toward it.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

You don’t have to go to a church building, but Scripture does call us to fellowship with other believers. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together… but exhorting one another” ~Hebrews 10:25.

That’s exactly why I started this forum, so born-again believers can connect, encourage one another, and stay grounded in the Word together.

I agree we’re all growing, but I always try to keep it clear that Christ is the One who has already perfected us in our standing before God ~Hebrews 10:14. Our growth flows from that, not toward it.

Welcome to the forum.

Would you then disagree with perfection being a goal for believers?

I ask because of Scriptures like Ephesians 4:13

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Thank you for the welcome!

 

[Yesua888]

It is an uncomfortable thing to not have a church. But my husband and I are staking our eternity on church attendance not being required if we seek to live out the Scriptures and teach them to our children diligently. I believe just putting into practice the tenets of the faith as it is written has made us so different from those around us. There is still so much to perfect.

So good to "meet you" here on BTF ... this is my worldly "second" church, my first is in my temple with Almighty God : )

 

[bobinfaith]

Would you then disagree with perfection being a goal for believers?

I ask because of Scriptures like Ephesians 4:13

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Thank you for the welcome!

Good morning, TitusTwoWife;

You ask an excellent question that many new and seasoned believers reflect on each day.

Ephesians 4:13, 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: - KJV

I belong to a Bible study group on Thursday mornings. I'm 69 years old and the youngest one who attends. Most of the others are in their 70s, 80s and one brother is 91. I'm considered by them, affectionately, as the young, energetic whipper snapper. lol!

During our study we discuss how the Scriptures impacts our application within our families, community, Church, work, etc...When I share my testimony I respect my elders constructive comments directed at me.

They've been around the block with hard knocks experience. It's humbling because they see my "imperfections" as a human but will encourage me for striving to be "spiritually perfect" as a man of God. The Lord has revealed the difference through my elder men and women's ministering to me.

My perfections as a man is impossible but God's perfection is possible through His strength as He builds me up with lessons from my mistakes, discipline, correction and His unconditional love and patience with me.

What else do I learn from this? Patience and understanding. When I turn the tables and am surrounded by young adults in their 20s-30s, youth and children, now I'm the senior exercising God's grace unto their imperfections.

TitusTwo, Does this make sense in reference to Ephesians 4:13?

God bless you, sister, your husband and your entire family.

Bob

 

[David]

Would you then disagree with perfection being a goal for believers?

I ask because of Scriptures like Ephesians 4:13

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

No, I wouldn’t disagree with you. Wanting to be perfect as God is good and right. Jesus even says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” ~Matthew 5:48.

But Scripture also tells us why we need Christ. We do not attain sinless perfection in this life and that is precisely why Jesus had to come. “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14. Our position before God has already been secured in Him.

We learn to walk in both. We strive for holiness because that is the standard God has set before us. But we rest in what Christ has finished at the cross.

And the beauty is we don’t have to try to do this on our own. As we walk with the Lord, the Holy Spirit convicts us and works in us to make us more Christlike, pruning away the sin in our lives. “Not as though I had already attained… but I follow after” ~Philippians 3:12 says Paul.

So we should keep wanting to be perfect. Just keep it in the context that our hope does not rest in us getting there perfectly here on earth, but what Jesus has already done for us while He sanctifies us day by day.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

But Scripture also tells us why we need Christ. We do not attain sinless perfection in this life and that is precisely why Jesus had to come.

I agree that there is no one without sin in their past, which is why Jesus had to come. But I believe we are supposed to stop all sin as new creations in Christ.


2 Peter 1:9
King James Version
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


Romans 6:11
King James Version
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 4:1​

​

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;​

I say this humbly. I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[David]

I agree that there is no one without sin in their past, which is why Jesus had to come. But I believe we are supposed to stop all sin as new creations in Christ.

Wow, I have never really thought this much about this. It is a hard one for me to answer. I think it feels hard because Scripture holds two truths at the same time, and we can’t drop either one.

The Bible agrees with both parts, and we have to keep them together. We are all sinners, which is why Jesus came. “For all have sinned” ~Romans 3:23. And when we are saved, there is a real change. “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” ~Romans 6:2. We are not called to continue in sin or live in it as a pattern.

But Scripture also says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” ~1 John 1:8. So we do not reach sinless perfection in this life. There is still a battle. “The flesh lusteth against the Spirit” ~Galatians 5:17.

So both are true. We don’t live in sin anymore, but we still fight against it. When we do sin, we confess and turn back. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us” ~1 John 1:9.

The Christian life is not sinless perfection, but a changed direction and an ongoing fight, depending on God’s grace every day.

Our desire to stop all sin as a new creation in Christ is biblical and godly. Keep pressing on in that fight, relying on the Spirit, confessing quickly when you fall, and trusting that God who began a good work in you will bring it to completion (Philippians 1:6). The tension between “sin no more” and “if we say we have no sin” keeps us both diligent and humble.

I would also like to hear others' thoughts on this subject.

 

[bobinfaith]

I agree that there is no one without sin in their past, which is why Jesus had to come. But I believe we are supposed to stop all sin as new creations in Christ.

Wow, I have never really thought this much about this. It is a hard one for me to answer. I think it feels hard because Scripture holds two truths at the same time, and we can’t drop either one.

The Bible agrees with both parts, and we have to keep them together. We are all sinners, which is why Jesus came. “For all have sinned” ~Romans 3:23. And when we are saved, there is a real change. “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” ~Romans 6:2. We are not called to continue in sin or live in it as a pattern.

Good morning, TitusTwoWife and David;

Years ago when my wife and I were Christian babes we attended a Bible Study. We were taught that once we're saved we have been forgiven, once and for all. Therefore God doesn't call us sinners and we don't have to repent thereafter, because we are forgiven, once and for all.

The context in Colossians 2:13-14 and Hebrews 10:14 teaches us that. But as we grew and matured in our discipleship, we gained perspective of correct context. (Is perspective the right word?)

We still need to repent and seek forgiveness from ongoing temptations, sins; murder, stealing, greed, extramarital affair, lying, cursing, jealousy, coveting, tiny or huge, it's all sin....

David wrote "We are all sinners, which is why Jesus came. “For all have sinned” ~Romans 3:23.
Amen.

I also agree with TitusTwoWife, as believers we are supposed to stop all sin as new creations in Christ.

Sadly, this is where we all fall short. I still have to get down on my knees daily.

We're still men and women and will fall into sin. This is where our daily and growing relationship with Christ is so vital for cleansing our sins, whether tiny or huge. I believe this desire for Christ minimizes our sin.

Additional thoughts?

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[TitusTwoWife]

But Scripture also says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” ~1 John 1:8. So we do not reach sinless perfection in this life.

A couple verses later, it says

1 John 2:1
King James Version
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I think 1 John 1:8 is used to say we can't stop sinning. But it can't mean that because the author wrote the letter so they wouldn't sin.

Believing that its possible to stop sinning has helped me overcome so many sins in my life. I don't just think of sin as an inevitable misstep. I think to apologize and forsake the sin with the intention to not do it again and make no provision for the flesh.

When I used to believe it was impossible, sin basically ruled over me and I struggled with works of the flesh like pride, lust, and gluttony.

 

[David]

Believing that its possible to stop sinning has helped me overcome so many sins in my life. I don't just think of sin as an inevitable misstep. I think to apologize and forsake the sin with the intention to not do it again and make no provision for the flesh.

That’s a good way to put it. After we’re born again, something changes in how we see sin. We don’t excuse it or plan for it anymore. We start thinking differently about it, turning from it, and refusing to make room for it. That’s not natural. That’s the new life at work. Scripture says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” ~1 John 3:9. The point is not that we never stumble, but that we no longer live in sin as a pattern. There’s a break. A new direction. The Holy Spirit convicts us when we sin.

And that desire to forsake sin and walk clean is evidence of that new birth. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” ~2 Corinthians 5:17. When we start thinking like that, taking sin seriously, turning from it, and not wanting to go back, that’s a strong sign that God has truly done a work in us.

That’s something we can be encouraged by.

 

[Yesua888]

Good morning, TitusTwoWife and David;

Years ago when my wife and I were Christian babes we attended a Bible Study. We were taught that once we're saved we have been forgiven, once and for all. Therefore God doesn't call us sinners and we don't have to repent thereafter, because we are forgiven, once and for all.

The context in Colossians 2:13-14 and Hebrews 10:14 teaches us that. But as we grew and matured in our discipleship, we gained perspective of correct context. (Is perspective the right word?)

We still need to repent and seek forgiveness from ongoing temptations, sins; murder, stealing, greed, extramarital affair, lying, cursing, jealousy, coveting, tiny or huge, it's all sin....

David wrote "We are all sinners, which is why Jesus came. “For all have sinned” ~Romans 3:23.
Amen.

I also agree with TitusTwoWife, as believers we are supposed to stop all sin as new creations in Christ.

Sadly, this is where we all fall short. I still have to get down on my knees daily.

We're still men and women and will fall into sin. This is where our daily and growing relationship with Christ is so vital for cleansing our sins, whether tiny or huge. I believe this desire for Christ minimizes our sin.

Additional thoughts?

God bless everyone.

Bob

I so agree Bob, thank you for that : )
I am noticing each day now, that Holy Spirit IS highlighting the "negativity" that surrounds me, and is in me; He is helping me to shut the door on it. However, it surfaces often, and I have to slam the door often!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

That’s a good way to put it. After we’re born again, something changes in how we see sin. We don’t excuse it or plan for it anymore. We start thinking differently about it, turning from it, and refusing to make room for it. That’s not natural. That’s the new life at work. Scripture says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” ~1 John 3:9. The point is not that we never stumble, but that we no longer live in sin as a pattern. There’s a break. A new direction. The Holy Spirit convicts us when we sin.

And that desire to forsake sin and walk clean is evidence of that new birth. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” ~2 Corinthians 5:17. When we start thinking like that, taking sin seriously, turning from it, and not wanting to go back, that’s a strong sign that God has truly done a work in us.

That’s something we can be encouraged by.

I am encouraged by the discussion here. Admittedly, my husband and I have a stance on sin and perfection that is very unpopular. But there really is an appreciation of Scripture here and I can tell. Plus, you all speak to each other warmly and humanly. Im not used to that on a forum. It's very pleasant.

 

[bobinfaith]

I am encouraged by the discussion here. Admittedly, my husband and I have a stance on sin and perfection that is very unpopular. But there really is an appreciation of Scripture here and I can tell. Plus, you all speak to each other warmly and humanly. Im not used to that on a forum. It's very pleasant.

Good morning, TitusTwoWife;

Giving God all glory!

This is what happens when we are in unity, can get closer to God enabling us to comfortably ask those questions about organized religion, reconciliation in relationships, our faith, etc...to our fellow brothers and sisters.

God bless you and your family.

Bob

 

[OceanLilly]

I came across this post on Reddit and thought it would be interesting to hear how others would respond. I’m planning to share my own thoughts on it too.

As I have gotten older and gotten closer to God I have learned I don't really believe in religion anymore.

The whole Calvinists vs Arminian, Catholic vs Protestant, it is all just a load of malarkey and ultimately doesn't matter.

I think as long as one believes Christ is their Savior, that's it. The rest will come with time and faith. They will sin less and have a better life. Multiple things can be true at the same time even if it is paradoxical to us, meaning the differences in denominations are essentially meaningless.

Religion is just a very perverse way to control a population in my opinion. And I'm not necessarily calling out denomination or people who belong to a denomination, but I am calling out the people who think that only people who believe the same as them go to Heaven.

I think so,yes.
The church,as I understand God's teachings,are the whole body of the faithful.

While I think Denominationalism, which I personally label as Demon-Nationalism, divided us based on others interpretation of God and His teachings.

And the understanding of those men ends up in having their names affixed to what then begets followers. Which has fed the ego of those founding men. Their opinions are then carried further in their names.
When the name of Jesus is the only name the Truth of God in Christ should hold followers in allegiance.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Even though I am shocked and vexed by the corruption in churches today, I am comforted at the thought that God knew it would happen and none of it takes Him by surprise. There are many predictions about it and examples in Scripture.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

As far as religion itself, that is a good thing as stated by James. Religion that is pure and undefined is to visit orphans and widows in their distress and keep oneself unstained from the world. That, I will always believe in.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

As I continue to read and study Scripture with my husband, Im getting more confident that being without a church is a much safer place to be in spiritual terms.

Instead of worship at a set time and place, worship as Jesus and the apostles taught is in Spirit and Truth and in presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice. The worship God wants from us is daily and from a heart that obeys Him at all times. Worship is all of us surrendered to the Lord's ways all the time, not an emotional musical experience we may have at a building.

We are members of the Temple of God now. And if we obey God from the heart daily, no weekly program is needed.

I have reluctantly admitted that church services I've attended did not really allow me to focus on God. My understanding now is that God wasn't meant to be the focus ---those on stage at any given time were.

 

[bobinfaith]

Good morning;

Do you feel like getting closer to God has made you question the value of organized religion? Why or why not?​

In response to the title of this thread, Hazel and I visited two famous Catholic Churches this month. Visitors from all over the world visit daily and “there is a fee to see this attraction.”

In my spirit this did not sit well with me. I personally don’t believe in charging people to see a Church that is centuries old. The argument is the parish doesn’t charge for those attending worship but charge to help maintain the upkeep and hired guides. This still felt very thin.

How many of the visitors that support paying a fee went into these Churches, or after visiting the Church, actually gave reverence to the Lord, instead experienced an attraction with pictures taken?

I saw it with my own eyes and couldn’t help but be reminded of Jesus overturning the tables in Matthew 21:12-13 because of the exploiting intent of the money changers and den of robbers? The point is He strongly declared the temple was to be a house of prayer.

There is a variance in the context in Matthew 21’s temple versus the Church building today, but the message is still there. The Church building in these times is to prioritize worship and reverence over attraction, commercialization and profit.

We chose not to pay to go inside, instead, stood outside and saw how old these Church buildings had been standing. I raised my argument to the Lord but only He knows.

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[bobinfaith]

As I continue to read and study Scripture with my husband, Im getting more confident that being without a church is a much safer place to be in spiritual terms.

Instead of worship at a set time and place, worship as Jesus and the apostles taught is in Spirit and Truth and in presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice. The worship God wants from us is daily and from a heart that obeys Him at all times. Worship is all of us surrendered to the Lord's ways all the time, not an emotional musical experience we may have at a building.

We are members of the Temple of God now. And if we obey God from the heart daily, no weekly program is needed.

I have reluctantly admitted that church services I've attended did not really allow me to focus on God. My understanding now is that God wasn't meant to be the focus ---those on stage at any given time were.

Good morning, TitusTwoWife;

I read your testimonies carefully and I understand the decision between you and your husband.

Whether you remain at Temple of God or have left, did you have this conversation with your Pastor and how did he receive it?

I ask because I had members meet with me, some who had attended for years express what you did. It ended amicably just as it did when they first came to visit. Other past members just left quietly.

God bless you, your husband and family.

Bob

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Good morning, TitusTwoWife;

I read your testimonies carefully and I understand the decision between you and your husband.

Whether you remain at Temple of God or have left, did you have this conversation with your Pastor and how did he receive it?

I ask because I had members meet with me, some who had attended for years express what you did. It ended amicably just as it did when they first came to visit. Other past members just left quietly.

God bless you, your husband and family.

Bob

Hi Bob. Our last pastor left within a year and we left after realizing they were leaving. We had expressed some issues but were still thinking we may find another church at the time.