When does the Judgment happen.

[Hobie]

...for the Believers and for the Wicked.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

So when does this judgment happen?

 

[Hobie]

Now take into account that the Bible speaks of a Judgment for the Believers as they lay claim to be worthy to be redeemed by Christ at His Second Coming.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

Now we see again that the Bible speaks about a Judgment Day......

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And we see where God sets up a courtroom for judgement that is described in both Daniel and Revelation..

Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that the book life and books are mentioned as being used, its the same judgement event. But this cannot be for the saints as they have already been judged as Christ clearly lays out..

Matthew 25:33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

So the house of God, the saints, are judged before they "inherit the kingdom prepared for you". And we see it says that "judgment was given to the saints of the most High" in Daniel before "the saints possessed the kingdom."..
Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And its clear that Christ is who will judge, both the house of God and those who have chosen condemnation by continuing in the bondage of sin.

 

[Hobie]

Now its clear that both the saints and the wicked will be judged by Christ as some claim they get by without it. Lets take a look at scripture:

Matthew 12.36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
John 5.22
For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:
5.27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Romans 14.10-12
We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, (can also be translated, time) in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.
Romans 2:15-16
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments" for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

We also find many that claim it's only the wicked that are judged, but the Bible clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment throne of God, some will receive the judgment of condemnation, others will be judged worthy by the blood of the Lamb.
2 Thessalonians. 1:5
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Now notice what Peter says:

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

So its clear the saints will be judged before they are given their reward when Christ comes at the Second Coming, so now the question is when do the wicked receive their judgement.

 

[David]

This is how I see it. The Bible records two distinct judgment moments. At the appearing of Christ the believers will stand before His judgment seat, not to be condemned but to give account and receive as they deserve according to what they have done in the body. ~2 Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.” Believers are free from condemnation for their sin, because Christ took the judgment for our sin. ~Romans 8: 1 says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.”

Jesus also explains how believers will be judged at His coming when He gathers all the nations and separates the sheep from the goats. ~Matthew 25:31–34 says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations. And he shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” This agrees with ~1 Peter 4:17 which says, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God,” revealing that believers are assessed first at His appearing.

The judgment of the wicked is another event that occurs after the thousand years when the dead are raised. This is the Great White Throne judgment when the books are opened and everyone is judged according to their works. ~Revelation 20:11–15 says, “And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God. And the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” This is the day God has appointed to judge the world in righteousness by Jesus Christ. ~Acts 17:31 states, “Because he has appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained.”

When put together, the Bible shows that believers will be judged for a reward at the coming of Christ, and the wicked will be judged for a condemnation after the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Hobie]

This is how I see it. The Bible records two distinct judgment moments. At the appearing of Christ the believers will stand before His judgment seat, not to be condemned but to give account and receive as they deserve according to what they have done in the body. ~2 Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.” Believers are free from condemnation for their sin, because Christ took the judgment for our sin. ~Romans 8: 1 says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.”

Jesus also explains how believers will be judged at His coming when He gathers all the nations and separates the sheep from the goats. ~Matthew 25:31–34 says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations. And he shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” This agrees with ~1 Peter 4:17 which says, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God,” revealing that believers are assessed first at His appearing.

The judgment of the wicked is another event that occurs after the thousand years when the dead are raised. This is the Great White Throne judgment when the books are opened and everyone is judged according to their works. ~Revelation 20:11–15 says, “And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God. And the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” This is the day God has appointed to judge the world in righteousness by Jesus Christ. ~Acts 17:31 states, “Because he has appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained.”

When put together, the Bible shows that believers will be judged for a reward at the coming of Christ, and the wicked will be judged for a condemnation after the resurrection of the dead.

Amen my brother. It seems to be the first one is to judge the sheep/saints and the goats/wicked which is done before the Second Coming where all come before the judgment seat of Christ. Then the Great White Throne judgement, which is one which the saints will see along with the whole universe in what essential is a open court judgement to show the evidence so that all may see that God is just and vindicated in His divine punishment on the wicked.

 

[David]

Amen my brother. It seems to be the first one is to judge the sheep/saints and the goats/wicked which is done before the Second Coming where all come before the judgment seat of Christ. Then the Great White Throne judgement, which is one which the saints will see along with the whole universe in what essential is a open court judgement to show the evidence so that all may see that God is just and vindicated in His divine punishment on the wicked.

Thank you for wanting to set things in order, but what you have just added to the Scripture is not in harmony with what is actually written there.

Jesus sets the timing for us and He is crystal clear on the subject. “But when the Son of man shall come in His glory…and then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all the nations, and He shall separate them one from another” ~Matthew 25:31 through 32. The separation of the sheep and the goats occur at His coming. Scripture never places that judgment before His appearance.

Neither is there a verse that describes the Great White Throne as a courtroom where the universe is an audience so that God can vindicate Himself as being just. The passage simply says the dead are raised, judged, and thrown into the lake of fire if not found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11 through 15 give us the facts without adding spectators or a grand display for all of creation to see.

I do not question your heart at all, but rather seek to keep you and myself from drifting away from what is written and adding concepts not found in the Word. Scripture has provided us with a very simple pattern to follow. Christ judges the living at His coming, and He judges the lost at the final resurrection. All that goes beyond that is out of the text.

I agree with you, we should know these things correctly, which is why sticking to Scripture alone is so important.

 

[Yesua888]

... Scripture has provided us with a very simple pattern to follow. Christ judges the living at His coming, and He judges the lost at the final resurrection. All that goes beyond that is out of the text.

David, perhaps you can clear this up for me ... does the dead, the 14000 saints, and "those who survived" (the tribulation?) rise up and meet Jesus in the clouds, where he "reigns in heaven for 1000 years" (thought Jesus comes to earth to reign for 1000 years?) I am really battling to make sense of the relevant scriptures, and have been reading other bible studies which are not making much sense to me.
Eg. "The first coming, the second coming, the first judgement, the second judgement" ...

I agree with you, we should know these things correctly, which is why sticking to Scripture alone is so important.

 

[David]

David, perhaps you can clear this up for me ... does the dead, the 14000 saints, and "those who survived" (the tribulation?) rise up and meet Jesus in the clouds, where he "reigns in heaven for 1000 years" (thought Jesus comes to earth to reign for 1000 years?) I am really battling to make sense of the relevant scriptures, and have been reading other bible studies which are not making much sense to me.
Eg. "The first coming, the second coming, the first judgement, the second judgement" ...

I don’t want to come across like I have every detail figured out. This is not a salvation issue, and I’m not trying to argue for a system. I’m just explaining what I see when I read the verses together and let the plain passages help me understand the harder ones.

A lot of the confusion today comes from people piling charts and labels onto passages that were never meant to carry that weight. The only way I know to truly study the bible is by staying with what Scripture actually says, not what teachers build on top of it.

The Bible gives us two fixed anchor points that never move.

First, when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the living believers are caught up together with them ~1 Thessalonians 4:16–17. Paul ties that directly to the appearing of Christ ~1 Corinthians 15:23. Scripture never divides that resurrection of believers into separate phases for different groups. The 144,000, the martyrs, and every believer belong to the same people of God in Christ. The New Testament never carves them up into different resurrection schedules.

Second, the judgment of the lost happens after the resurrection of the dead at the end ~Revelation 20:11–15. Jesus said the same thing. When the Son of Man comes, He separates the righteous from the wicked ~Matthew 25:31–32. That is the final division.

Everything in between those two anchor points has to fit inside that framework. Revelation 20 speaks of a “first resurrection” and a reign with Christ. I am not ignoring that. I am saying the didactic passages that tell us what will actually happen at Christ’s coming do not break the resurrection of believers into multiple stages. Scripture never tells us that one group of believers rises here, another rises later, and a third rises even later. That is the kind of system-building that creates more fog than clarity.

I’m not claiming to be infallible here. This is simply where the Scriptures lead me when I stay with the parts that speak the most directly about Christ’s return and the resurrection. I want to let the Bible speak for itself without adding layers that God didn’t give us.

So to your question about “the dead,” “the 144,000,” “those who survive,” and “where Jesus reigns”: Scripture does not give separate timelines for each of those groups. It gives one resurrection of all who belong to Christ when He comes, and one final judgment for those who do not. Anything beyond that is an attempt to fill in gaps God never told us to fill.

If we stay anchored to the plain passages, the picture is much simpler than what many teachers have made it. Christ returns. His people are raised. The lost are judged. God makes all things new. That is the pattern Scripture gives us, and that is the ground we can actually stand on with confidence.