The End Time sequence of Events...

[Hobie]

What is coming, what does the Bible tell us and in what sequence. Well, the James Webb Space Telescope shows a interstellar object in space heading for our solar system at light speed, and we see wars and rumors of wars and nations preparing alliances much as before WWI and WWII, and much of leaders gathering on peace talks, what does the Bible tell us? Scripture tells us of a “sudden destruction”, we find it in 1 Thessalonians 5:3..

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is not a local or limited event such as Gaza or 9/11, but what will certainly be a world changing or cataclysmic event. What are we given next, lets look.
Revelation 13:11-17
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Then will come the Close of Probation and the sealing of the 144000. the time such as never was, the Seven Last Plagues, and the 'false christ' showing up before the Second Coming of Christ.

So where are we now in the sequence as we see the Image clearly forming and 'Peace and Safety' coming from the top, and what do we have coming to the time of the end.

We have already begun with the signs with the fires and floods and pandemic but there is worse to come as we see the new world order unite saying its to combat these events, but there purpose is for a different reason. Revelation describes the whore of Babylon and we see that the leaders of this world will unite and give their power and support to the this AntiChrist power, apostate church, and then this new world order will be in a position ready to enforce the mark of the beast.

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The Mark of the Beast will be enforced by what can only be the force of law on the whole world and people will have to choose. Revelation 13 tells us that the mark of the beast will be enforced upon the whole world ...
Revelation 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The new world order governments will unite in convincing the world that the mark of the beast will be the "solution" to the world's problems, much as we see with these laws on 'climate change'. They will convince the world that all these troubles are the judgments of God because of us not following Him and then insert the deception of what they want the world to do.

 

[Hobie]

Now before anyone chooses for or against the mark of the beast, God, through His remnant on earth will send a final message to the world. This message contained in the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 is God's last call of mercy to the world.

Revelation 14:8-11
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
'
So the choice as to receiving the Mark of the Beast comes now and probation closes. Once everyone have made their decision for the mark of the beast or the seal of God, then the door of mercy will close and everyone will be judged either righteous or filthy ...
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Then we shall see a time of trouble, like we have newer seen before, the great tribulation prophesied in Daniel..
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Then come Seven Last Plagues as now that everyone has decided which side they will follow, either that of Christ or the beast, God's final judgments can begin to fall upon this world, in the form of the seven last plagues. These plagues will be the wrath of God..
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then will come the Battle of Armageddon which is the final world battle and will happen when Jesus Christ returns,,,
Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

We will then have the second coming of Christ will be a world wide, visible event as He comes with all His angels. Jesus will return in unimaginable glory to deliver His people. There will be no secret rapture like so many believe, as the Bible clearly states that EVERY EYE will see Jesus return, and that His second coming will be a seen and heard by the whole world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now this is the 'first resurrection' and the wicked or the rest of the dead (lost sinners) will not live again until the 1000 years are over ...
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

After the 1000 years in Heaven, we return to this earth in the New Jerusalem and the wicked are resurrected and Satan gathers them together to fight and take the New Jerusalem ...
Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[David]

What is coming, what does the Bible tell us and in what sequence.

I know when I watch the news and see online and everywhere I look you can feel it happening beneath your feet. The news cycles, the wars, the rumors, the disasters, they are the early gusts of a hurricane announcing the coming storm. Jesus foretold this day, warning about false saviors coming, nations rising, chaos growing. He calls it “the beginning of sorrows” (Matthew 24:4-8). This isn’t the end of the story, Jesus is the end of the story. This is the warning siren.

Paul builds on Jesus’ words. He warns that “when everyone is saying ‘Peace and safety’” (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Paul compares God’s sudden destruction to labor pains coming on a pregnant woman. You can’t schedule labor pains; they break in and there’s no avoiding them. God’s judgment will break in like that.

And in that atmosphere, Scripture says, a “man of sin” will appear (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). Revelation calls him the beast. Another beast supports him, dazzling the world with miracles, making fire fall from the sky, leading the multitudes into deception (Revelation 13:11-17). And then the mark. Not a cute little logo on your hand but a sign of allegiance, forced worship that violates everything God has commanded. People will have to choose: God’s way or the world’s way.

Jesus calls what follows “great tribulation” – a time worse than anything that has ever struck this planet (Matthew 24:21). Revelation paints it as bowls of wrath being poured out (Revelation 16). But for God’s people, even in that pressure cooker, the command is the same: hang on, hold fast to His commandments, maintain the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Then just when it seems like darkness owns the night, the sky is torn apart. “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30). Christ returns, gathers His people, and obliterates the man of sin with the radiance of His presence (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Judgment ensues for those who rejected Him (Revelation 20: 11-15) and God unfolds a brand-new heaven and earth where righteousness finally reigns (Revelation 21:1-5).

That’s the real timeline. Not telescopes. Not headlines. Scripture gives us a clear sequence of events: warning signs, false peace, sudden destruction, appearance of the man of sin, global coercion, great tribulation, then the unmistakable return of Jesus and final judgment. Our job right now isn’t to panic but to prepare: to live holy, stay alert, and shine the light of Christ until He comes (Luke 21:36; 2 Peter 3:11-12).

 

[David]

So the choice as to receiving the Mark of the Beast comes now and probation closes. Once everyone have made their decision for the mark of the beast or the seal of God, then the door of mercy will close and everyone will be judged either righteous or filthy ...

Thank you for your concern. I do appreciate the heart behind your words. There is just one point I would take issue with, which is very delicate. The Bible has never taught that there will be a global, one-time “closing of mercy” before Christ’s return. It is quite clear in its teaching: “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The point at which a person is no longer able to repent is not one singular point for all humanity. The opportunity to repent ceases at death.

Jesus’s coming will mean that those who are “in Christ” are taken up to meet Him (Matthew 24: 44; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), but all others will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:31–46). The reason the urgency of the gospel message is so crucial at this point in time is summed up in Paul’s statement: “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).

So instead of teaching about a future, end-time “door of mercy closing” (on a global scale), the Bible is quite clear that the message to repent and believe needs to be proclaimed now because no one knows how long we have.

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for your concern. I do appreciate the heart behind your words. There is just one point I would take issue with, which is very delicate. The Bible has never taught that there will be a global, one-time “closing of mercy” before Christ’s return. It is quite clear in its teaching: “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The point at which a person is no longer able to repent is not one singular point for all humanity. The opportunity to repent ceases at death.

Jesus’s coming will mean that those who are “in Christ” are taken up to meet Him (Matthew 24: 44; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), but all others will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:31–46). The reason the urgency of the gospel message is so crucial at this point in time is summed up in Paul’s statement: “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).

So instead of teaching about a future, end-time “door of mercy closing” (on a global scale), the Bible is quite clear that the message to repent and believe needs to be proclaimed now because no one knows how long we have.

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[David]

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

I want to say this kindly and plainly. The idea of a global “probation closing” before Christ returns is taught by certain groups, mainly Seventh day Adventism and its offshoots that promote the investigative judgment and the shut door theory. The issue is that the Bible itself never teaches a worldwide moment before the return of Christ when mercy ends for everyone still alive. I am not questioning your sincerity. I am simply comparing every idea with Scripture as we are told to do ~Acts 17:11.

The verses you quoted are true, but none of them teach a universal, pre return cutoff of mercy.

Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 say that all will stand before Christ in judgment. They teach accountability, not a global closing of mercy before the Lord appears.

Revelation 20:4 describes the reign of those who were faithful, not a pre return shut door for all humanity.

Revelation 22:11 shows the finality of judgment when Christ returns. It fits the pattern Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31 through 46 where the sheep and goats are separated at His appearing, not before it.

Scripture is consistent from start to finish. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at a global moment in history. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. And the final separation of righteous and wicked takes place when Christ returns in glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46.

This is not a salvation issue, but it is a truth issue. Salvation is through repentance and faith in Christ alone ~Acts 16:31, ~John 3:36. The Bible never makes a global probation closing part of the gospel. At the same time, we should not add teachings to Scripture that Scripture itself does not give ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

I respect your desire to take God’s judgment seriously. I simply want to stay within the boundaries God’s Word sets. The message of Scripture is clear: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2. The Bible keeps the urgency right there, not on a pre return universal cutoff.

 

[David]

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

I want to address this openly because the teaching was introduced openly, and Scripture directs public correction when error is brought into the public space ~1 Timothy 5:20.

You referenced the idea of a global “close of probation” and concepts tied to the Seventh day Adventist investigative judgment system. I want to say this with respect, but also clarity. These doctrines do not come from Scripture. The Word teaches that a person’s opportunity to repent ends at death ~Hebrews 9:27, and that the final separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place when Christ returns in His glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46. Anything beyond that goes further than what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Our forum rules are clear:

“No false teaching or doctrinal agendas. This includes unbiblical movements such as the SDA investigative judgment.”
“All teaching must be supported clearly by Scripture.”

Because of that, we cannot allow extra biblical systems to be promoted as doctrine here. This is not about attacking you as a person. It is about guarding the truth for the entire community, as we are commanded to do ~Titus 1:9 and ~Acts 20:28.

You are welcome to remain here and to participate in discussions. You just need to stay within the boundaries Scripture sets, which is the same standard we require of every member.

This forum exists to defend biblical truth, protect believers from error, and uphold the authority of God’s Word alone. That is the path we will continue to follow.

 

[Hobie]

I want to say this kindly and plainly. The idea of a global “probation closing” before Christ returns is taught by certain groups, mainly Seventh day Adventism and its offshoots that promote the investigative judgment and the shut door theory. The issue is that the Bible itself never teaches a worldwide moment before the return of Christ when mercy ends for everyone still alive. I am not questioning your sincerity. I am simply comparing every idea with Scripture as we are told to do ~Acts 17:11.

The verses you quoted are true, but none of them teach a universal, pre return cutoff of mercy.

Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 say that all will stand before Christ in judgment. They teach accountability, not a global closing of mercy before the Lord appears.

Revelation 20:4 describes the reign of those who were faithful, not a pre return shut door for all humanity.

Revelation 22:11 shows the finality of judgment when Christ returns. It fits the pattern Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31 through 46 where the sheep and goats are separated at His appearing, not before it.

Scripture is consistent from start to finish. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at a global moment in history. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. And the final separation of righteous and wicked takes place when Christ returns in glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46.

This is not a salvation issue, but it is a truth issue. Salvation is through repentance and faith in Christ alone ~Acts 16:31, ~John 3:36. The Bible never makes a global probation closing part of the gospel. At the same time, we should not add teachings to Scripture that Scripture itself does not give ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

I respect your desire to take God’s judgment seriously. I simply want to stay within the boundaries God’s Word sets. The message of Scripture is clear: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2. The Bible keeps the urgency right there, not on a pre return universal cutoff.

There will come a point when Christ leaves heaven and comes for the Second Coming, and all must be judged by then as the sheep and the goats have been decided, I think we all can agree on that.

 

[David]

There will come a point when Christ leaves heaven and comes for the Second Coming, and all must be judged by then as the sheep and the goats have been decided, I think we all can agree on that.

You’re mixing two different moments together. Yes, when Christ returns the separation is final. No Christian disagrees with that. The problem is when you take that truth and turn it into a pre return probation closing that Scripture never teaches.

Jesus Himself said the separation happens when He arrives, not before.

“When the Son of Man shall come in His glory… He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats” ~Matthew 25:31 through 32.

There is no gap, no worldwide cutoff before His appearing. The separation happens at His coming. Period.

Hebrews 9:27 keeps it even simpler. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at some pre return global moment. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” The Bible never moves that deadline.

Your statement implies everyone must be judged before Christ leaves heaven. Scripture never says that. It says He judges when He comes. “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15.

The difference matters, because what you’re describing lines up exactly with the SDA framework. That’s why I keep bringing it up. Not to accuse you, but to keep the conversation inside the boundaries Scripture sets.

I agree with you that the separation is real and final. The Bible says so clearly. But the timing Scripture gives is at His return, not before it. Until that moment, the call still stands: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

 

[Hobie]

You’re mixing two different moments together. Yes, when Christ returns the separation is final. No Christian disagrees with that. The problem is when you take that truth and turn it into a pre return probation closing that Scripture never teaches.

Jesus Himself said the separation happens when He arrives, not before.

“When the Son of Man shall come in His glory… He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats” ~Matthew 25:31 through 32.

There is no gap, no worldwide cutoff before His appearing. The separation happens at His coming. Period.

Hebrews 9:27 keeps it even simpler. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at some pre return global moment. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” The Bible never moves that deadline.

Your statement implies everyone must be judged before Christ leaves heaven. Scripture never says that. It says He judges when He comes. “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15.

The difference matters, because what you’re describing lines up exactly with the SDA framework. That’s why I keep bringing it up. Not to accuse you, but to keep the conversation inside the boundaries Scripture sets.

I agree with you that the separation is real and final. The Bible says so clearly. But the timing Scripture gives is at His return, not before it. Until that moment, the call still stands: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

Yes, but before any court can impose the sentence, what has to happen. God is just and His justice is true..

 

[David]

Yes, but before any court can impose the sentence, what has to happen. God is just and His justice is true..

God’s justice is perfect, but Scripture tells us when He carries out that justice. The Bible never places a worldwide judgment or probation before Christ returns. It consistently shows judgment being executed at His coming, not before it. Jesus said the separation of the righteous and the wicked happens when the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on His throne, and then He separates the sheep from the goats ~Matthew 25:31 through 32. There is nothing in that passage, or anywhere else, that moves the judgment into a time before His appearing. Hebrews makes the timeline even clearer: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Scripture places the moment of accountability at death for each person, not at a pre return cutoff for the whole world. And Jude says the same thing about timing: “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15. God is just, and His justice is true, but the Bible locates that justice at death for the individual and at Christ’s return for the world. Until He comes, the call of salvation remains open: “Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

 

[Yesua888]

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So there we have it ... this is all panning out as God's will, to agree to our "kingdom" being given to the beast, until Jesus returns!
It is clearly happening NOW, and it is clear that God has used "Man's" technology to ILLUMINATE the evil ... not much more to hide, and nowhere to hide!

 

[Yesua888]

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...

Is there scripture to showing "the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in graves and the 144000 living saints at the second coming" ?
Sorry, I am battling to follow and digest all of this (I have not been studying the bible for very long)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Is this where we live in the air with God for 1000 years ... it is not that clear to me?

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Is there scripture to back this, please : )

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is this in heaven or on earth?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It would seem that Satan is already deceiving the nations ... ?

After the 1000 years in Heaven, we return to this earth in the New Jerusalem and the wicked are resurrected and Satan gathers them together to fight and take the New Jerusalem ...
Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

What does this mean "encompassed the camp of the saints about"?

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.

And this all happens after 1000 years in heaven with God ...
When was Judgement then, before we ascended into the air with God?
Does everyone face judgement?
Any scripture to clear this up?

Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorry to create more "work" ... maybe someone else can jump in to clear this up for me : )

 

[Yesua888]

God’s justice is perfect, but Scripture tells us when He carries out that justice. The Bible never places a worldwide judgment or probation before Christ returns. It consistently shows judgment being executed at His coming, not before it. Is this judgement before we meet Him in the air, and is there clear scripture that indicated that we stay in the AIR with Him for 1000 years? Does Jesus return after that, and then Judgement occurs? Jesus said the separation of the righteous and the wicked happens when the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on His throne, and then He separates the sheep from the goats ~Matthew 25:31 through 32. There is nothing in that passage, or anywhere else, that moves the judgment into a time before His appearing. When is "His appearing", after being in the air with Him for 1000 years? Hebrews makes the timeline even clearer: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Scripture places the moment of accountability at death for each person, not at a pre return cutoff for the whole world. So at death (sleep) we have judgement, not when the World is judged? And Jude says the same thing about timing: “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” is this saying the opposite? ~Jude 14 through 15. I found this: " 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: ‘See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’ ... I suppose this means All of us? God is just, and His justice is true, but the Bible locates that justice at death for the individual and at Christ’s return for the world. Would someone please share scripture for this? Until He comes, the call of salvation remains open: “Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

Thank you in anticipation : )

 

[Mr. GLee]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[bobinfaith]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Good morning, Mr. GLee;

From reading your posts I noticed you emphasize (and I'll paraphrase,) "the God we cannot see" and Scriptura sola. In your personal daily walk, your ministry to your family, the community and sharing the Gospel, how do these two impact your life, in your own words?

God bless you, and thank you for sharing.

bobinfaith

 

[David]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Mr. GLee, I can understand your argument about deception and people grasping at shadows, but what you posted has several serious problems, and it doesn’t line up with what the Bible actually teaches. For the benefit of everyone else, I will have to be blunt. The Bible never says “no signs” were given. In fact, the miracles of Jesus are repeatedly called “signs.” John says, “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory” ~John 2:11. He also says, “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples… but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ” ~John 20:30–31. Jesus rebuked those who demanded a sign on their terms ~John 4: 48, ~Matthew 16:4, but He still did real signs by the Father’s will. Scripture is clear on that point.

You also turned Jesus’ words about a “wicked and adulterous generation” seeking a sign into a doctrine that “no sign was given” except for allegorical patterns of history. That is not what Jesus said. He said one sign would be given, “the sign of the prophet Jonas” ~Matthew 16: 4, and He went on to explain that as His death and resurrection ~Matthew 12:40. The resurrection is the great sign God has given to the world. We don’t get to disregard that and replace it with an allegorical system the Bible never taught.

You also redefined “the beast” as “natural unconverted mankind” and attached it to Cain. Scripture never gives that as the meaning of the beast. In Daniel and Revelation, the beast stands for kingdoms and specific end time powers ~Daniel 7, ~Revelation 13. On top of that, you tried to tie together “buying and selling” in ~Revelation 13: 17 and “buy the truth, and sell it not” in ~Proverbs 23:23 as if they taught the same doctrine. In Revelation the context is economic control based on the mark of the beast. In Proverbs it is valuing wisdom. They are different subjects completely. We can’t take unrelated verses and try to build a doctrine from them.

Over and over, in your post, you kept redefining terms like “sign,” “mark,” and “beast” with meanings the Bible itself never gives. That is not Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura means we let Scripture interpret Scripture in context and we refuse to go beyond what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6. When everything becomes allegory or potential hidden symbolism, we stop hearing what God actually said and start following human ideas masquerading in biblical language.

So for everyone else reading this, God has not left us without a clear Word. Jesus truly did signs from the Father. His resurrection is the sign of Jonah. Cain’s mark was for physical protection, not a prophetic code to unlock. And the beast and the mark are spoken about in their own context in Revelation. Our job is to believe what Scripture actually says and not to reinvent it.

Mr. GLee, you are welcome to discuss Scripture on this blog, but everything needs to be built on passages used in their proper context. If something is true, we should be able to show that clearly from the verses that are speaking about the doctrine at hand. Otherwise we only create confusion rather than clarity.

 

[Yesua888]

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Would you kindly let me know who the "original Beast" is? thanks Linda : )

 

[bobinfaith]

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Good morning, Hobie;

After reading your opening thread one paragraph caught my attention. The image of the beast (Revelation 13:14-15) represents a political power system that rebels against God.

However, the original beast is not a term in the Bible, nor pointing it "tongue in cheek" to a certain congress, political leader and aligning it to Scripture. This is merely expressing a personal view and applying it conveniently to Biblical Truth.

This has long been a practice amongst Christians and is not a healthy teaching of God's Word. I would encourage anyone to express their opinions transparently, and "distinguish" it to the context of the Scriptures.

Constructively speaking, opinions has it's use and can be a disciple's testimony or witness application from the teaching and principle of the Bible, which is an infallible source of God's Word being the authority, thus Sola Scriptura.

God bless everyone and Happy Thanksgiving.

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

Then will come the Battle of Armageddon which is the final world battle and will happen when Jesus Christ returns,,,

Is there scripture to back this statement, please?

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...

Who are the 144000 living saints?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It does not say in Thess 17 that we will be with the Lord for 1000 years in heaven, or is there other scripture that says this?
Revelation 20:4. “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
Is there clear scripture to say that the Christ's reign of 1000 years is on earth or in heaven?

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Is the first resurrection not when Jesus came back to earth, after the crucifiction?

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Is there any scripture that can verify this statement "the saints and the 144000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millenium in heaven, does the New Jerusalem come down to earth"?
Is this the rapture or the "reign of Jesus in heaven for 1000 years"?

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. where is this, heaven or earth?
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This is confusing, as it sounds like after the 1000 years of Christs reign, satan is released to deceive the nations all over again?
Isn't satan deceiving the nations on earth, right now?
Then I found this "Revelation 21:1-3: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God'"
IT SEEMS THAT THERE IS A WHOLE BIBLE STUDY NEEDED FOR THIS ...

Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If the saints go to heaven for a 1000 years with Christ (as mentioned above), that must be the rapture of the dead, the 144 000 and "the saints that were still alive" who rise up and meet Jesus in the clouds. Again, is there scripture that says that at this time, Jesus reigns in heaven for 1000 years or that there is a "rapture"?

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is the first death?
Wow! this was hard to understand : (