The End Time sequence of Events...

[Hobie]

What is coming, what does the Bible tell us and in what sequence. Well, the James Webb Space Telescope shows a interstellar object in space heading for our solar system at light speed, and we see wars and rumors of wars and nations preparing alliances much as before WWI and WWII, and much of leaders gathering on peace talks, what does the Bible tell us? Scripture tells us of a “sudden destruction”, we find it in 1 Thessalonians 5:3..

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is not a local or limited event such as Gaza or 9/11, but what will certainly be a world changing or cataclysmic event. What are we given next, lets look.
Revelation 13:11-17
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Then will come the Close of Probation and the sealing of the 144000. the time such as never was, the Seven Last Plagues, and the 'false christ' showing up before the Second Coming of Christ.

So where are we now in the sequence as we see the Image clearly forming and 'Peace and Safety' coming from the top, and what do we have coming to the time of the end.

We have already begun with the signs with the fires and floods and pandemic but there is worse to come as we see the new world order unite saying its to combat these events, but there purpose is for a different reason. Revelation describes the whore of Babylon and we see that the leaders of this world will unite and give their power and support to the this AntiChrist power, apostate church, and then this new world order will be in a position ready to enforce the mark of the beast.

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The Mark of the Beast will be enforced by what can only be the force of law on the whole world and people will have to choose. Revelation 13 tells us that the mark of the beast will be enforced upon the whole world ...
Revelation 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The new world order governments will unite in convincing the world that the mark of the beast will be the "solution" to the world's problems, much as we see with these laws on 'climate change'. They will convince the world that all these troubles are the judgments of God because of us not following Him and then insert the deception of what they want the world to do.

 

[Hobie]

Now before anyone chooses for or against the mark of the beast, God, through His remnant on earth will send a final message to the world. This message contained in the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 is God's last call of mercy to the world.

Revelation 14:8-11
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
'
So the choice as to receiving the Mark of the Beast comes now and probation closes. Once everyone have made their decision for the mark of the beast or the seal of God, then the door of mercy will close and everyone will be judged either righteous or filthy ...
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Then we shall see a time of trouble, like we have newer seen before, the great tribulation prophesied in Daniel..
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Then come Seven Last Plagues as now that everyone has decided which side they will follow, either that of Christ or the beast, God's final judgments can begin to fall upon this world, in the form of the seven last plagues. These plagues will be the wrath of God..
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then will come the Battle of Armageddon which is the final world battle and will happen when Jesus Christ returns,,,
Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

We will then have the second coming of Christ will be a world wide, visible event as He comes with all His angels. Jesus will return in unimaginable glory to deliver His people. There will be no secret rapture like so many believe, as the Bible clearly states that EVERY EYE will see Jesus return, and that His second coming will be a seen and heard by the whole world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now this is the 'first resurrection' and the wicked or the rest of the dead (lost sinners) will not live again until the 1000 years are over ...
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

After the 1000 years in Heaven, we return to this earth in the New Jerusalem and the wicked are resurrected and Satan gathers them together to fight and take the New Jerusalem ...
Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[David]

What is coming, what does the Bible tell us and in what sequence.

I know when I watch the news and see online and everywhere I look you can feel it happening beneath your feet. The news cycles, the wars, the rumors, the disasters, they are the early gusts of a hurricane announcing the coming storm. Jesus foretold this day, warning about false saviors coming, nations rising, chaos growing. He calls it “the beginning of sorrows” (Matthew 24:4-8). This isn’t the end of the story, Jesus is the end of the story. This is the warning siren.

Paul builds on Jesus’ words. He warns that “when everyone is saying ‘Peace and safety’” (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Paul compares God’s sudden destruction to labor pains coming on a pregnant woman. You can’t schedule labor pains; they break in and there’s no avoiding them. God’s judgment will break in like that.

And in that atmosphere, Scripture says, a “man of sin” will appear (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). Revelation calls him the beast. Another beast supports him, dazzling the world with miracles, making fire fall from the sky, leading the multitudes into deception (Revelation 13:11-17). And then the mark. Not a cute little logo on your hand but a sign of allegiance, forced worship that violates everything God has commanded. People will have to choose: God’s way or the world’s way.

Jesus calls what follows “great tribulation” – a time worse than anything that has ever struck this planet (Matthew 24:21). Revelation paints it as bowls of wrath being poured out (Revelation 16). But for God’s people, even in that pressure cooker, the command is the same: hang on, hold fast to His commandments, maintain the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Then just when it seems like darkness owns the night, the sky is torn apart. “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30). Christ returns, gathers His people, and obliterates the man of sin with the radiance of His presence (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Judgment ensues for those who rejected Him (Revelation 20: 11-15) and God unfolds a brand-new heaven and earth where righteousness finally reigns (Revelation 21:1-5).

That’s the real timeline. Not telescopes. Not headlines. Scripture gives us a clear sequence of events: warning signs, false peace, sudden destruction, appearance of the man of sin, global coercion, great tribulation, then the unmistakable return of Jesus and final judgment. Our job right now isn’t to panic but to prepare: to live holy, stay alert, and shine the light of Christ until He comes (Luke 21:36; 2 Peter 3:11-12).

 

[David]

So the choice as to receiving the Mark of the Beast comes now and probation closes. Once everyone have made their decision for the mark of the beast or the seal of God, then the door of mercy will close and everyone will be judged either righteous or filthy ...

Thank you for your concern. I do appreciate the heart behind your words. There is just one point I would take issue with, which is very delicate. The Bible has never taught that there will be a global, one-time “closing of mercy” before Christ’s return. It is quite clear in its teaching: “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The point at which a person is no longer able to repent is not one singular point for all humanity. The opportunity to repent ceases at death.

Jesus’s coming will mean that those who are “in Christ” are taken up to meet Him (Matthew 24: 44; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), but all others will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:31–46). The reason the urgency of the gospel message is so crucial at this point in time is summed up in Paul’s statement: “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).

So instead of teaching about a future, end-time “door of mercy closing” (on a global scale), the Bible is quite clear that the message to repent and believe needs to be proclaimed now because no one knows how long we have.

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for your concern. I do appreciate the heart behind your words. There is just one point I would take issue with, which is very delicate. The Bible has never taught that there will be a global, one-time “closing of mercy” before Christ’s return. It is quite clear in its teaching: “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The point at which a person is no longer able to repent is not one singular point for all humanity. The opportunity to repent ceases at death.

Jesus’s coming will mean that those who are “in Christ” are taken up to meet Him (Matthew 24: 44; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), but all others will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:31–46). The reason the urgency of the gospel message is so crucial at this point in time is summed up in Paul’s statement: “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).

So instead of teaching about a future, end-time “door of mercy closing” (on a global scale), the Bible is quite clear that the message to repent and believe needs to be proclaimed now because no one knows how long we have.

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[David]

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

I want to say this kindly and plainly. The idea of a global “probation closing” before Christ returns is taught by certain groups, mainly Seventh day Adventism and its offshoots that promote the investigative judgment and the shut door theory. The issue is that the Bible itself never teaches a worldwide moment before the return of Christ when mercy ends for everyone still alive. I am not questioning your sincerity. I am simply comparing every idea with Scripture as we are told to do ~Acts 17:11.

The verses you quoted are true, but none of them teach a universal, pre return cutoff of mercy.

Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 say that all will stand before Christ in judgment. They teach accountability, not a global closing of mercy before the Lord appears.

Revelation 20:4 describes the reign of those who were faithful, not a pre return shut door for all humanity.

Revelation 22:11 shows the finality of judgment when Christ returns. It fits the pattern Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31 through 46 where the sheep and goats are separated at His appearing, not before it.

Scripture is consistent from start to finish. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at a global moment in history. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. And the final separation of righteous and wicked takes place when Christ returns in glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46.

This is not a salvation issue, but it is a truth issue. Salvation is through repentance and faith in Christ alone ~Acts 16:31, ~John 3:36. The Bible never makes a global probation closing part of the gospel. At the same time, we should not add teachings to Scripture that Scripture itself does not give ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

I respect your desire to take God’s judgment seriously. I simply want to stay within the boundaries God’s Word sets. The message of Scripture is clear: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2. The Bible keeps the urgency right there, not on a pre return universal cutoff.

 

[David]

Gods Word makes clear there will come a day when the Judge looks at each case and makes His judgement, that is the close of probation no matter what one calls it.

I want to address this openly because the teaching was introduced openly, and Scripture directs public correction when error is brought into the public space ~1 Timothy 5:20.

You referenced the idea of a global “close of probation” and concepts tied to the Seventh day Adventist investigative judgment system. I want to say this with respect, but also clarity. These doctrines do not come from Scripture. The Word teaches that a person’s opportunity to repent ends at death ~Hebrews 9:27, and that the final separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place when Christ returns in His glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46. Anything beyond that goes further than what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Our forum rules are clear:

“No false teaching or doctrinal agendas. This includes unbiblical movements such as the SDA investigative judgment.”
“All teaching must be supported clearly by Scripture.”

Because of that, we cannot allow extra biblical systems to be promoted as doctrine here. This is not about attacking you as a person. It is about guarding the truth for the entire community, as we are commanded to do ~Titus 1:9 and ~Acts 20:28.

You are welcome to remain here and to participate in discussions. You just need to stay within the boundaries Scripture sets, which is the same standard we require of every member.

This forum exists to defend biblical truth, protect believers from error, and uphold the authority of God’s Word alone. That is the path we will continue to follow.

 

[Hobie]

I want to say this kindly and plainly. The idea of a global “probation closing” before Christ returns is taught by certain groups, mainly Seventh day Adventism and its offshoots that promote the investigative judgment and the shut door theory. The issue is that the Bible itself never teaches a worldwide moment before the return of Christ when mercy ends for everyone still alive. I am not questioning your sincerity. I am simply comparing every idea with Scripture as we are told to do ~Acts 17:11.

The verses you quoted are true, but none of them teach a universal, pre return cutoff of mercy.

Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 say that all will stand before Christ in judgment. They teach accountability, not a global closing of mercy before the Lord appears.

Revelation 20:4 describes the reign of those who were faithful, not a pre return shut door for all humanity.

Revelation 22:11 shows the finality of judgment when Christ returns. It fits the pattern Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31 through 46 where the sheep and goats are separated at His appearing, not before it.

Scripture is consistent from start to finish. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at a global moment in history. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. And the final separation of righteous and wicked takes place when Christ returns in glory ~Matthew 25:31 through 46.

This is not a salvation issue, but it is a truth issue. Salvation is through repentance and faith in Christ alone ~Acts 16:31, ~John 3:36. The Bible never makes a global probation closing part of the gospel. At the same time, we should not add teachings to Scripture that Scripture itself does not give ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

I respect your desire to take God’s judgment seriously. I simply want to stay within the boundaries God’s Word sets. The message of Scripture is clear: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2. The Bible keeps the urgency right there, not on a pre return universal cutoff.

There will come a point when Christ leaves heaven and comes for the Second Coming, and all must be judged by then as the sheep and the goats have been decided, I think we all can agree on that.

 

[David]

There will come a point when Christ leaves heaven and comes for the Second Coming, and all must be judged by then as the sheep and the goats have been decided, I think we all can agree on that.

You’re mixing two different moments together. Yes, when Christ returns the separation is final. No Christian disagrees with that. The problem is when you take that truth and turn it into a pre return probation closing that Scripture never teaches.

Jesus Himself said the separation happens when He arrives, not before.

“When the Son of Man shall come in His glory… He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats” ~Matthew 25:31 through 32.

There is no gap, no worldwide cutoff before His appearing. The separation happens at His coming. Period.

Hebrews 9:27 keeps it even simpler. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at some pre return global moment. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” The Bible never moves that deadline.

Your statement implies everyone must be judged before Christ leaves heaven. Scripture never says that. It says He judges when He comes. “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15.

The difference matters, because what you’re describing lines up exactly with the SDA framework. That’s why I keep bringing it up. Not to accuse you, but to keep the conversation inside the boundaries Scripture sets.

I agree with you that the separation is real and final. The Bible says so clearly. But the timing Scripture gives is at His return, not before it. Until that moment, the call still stands: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

 

[Hobie]

You’re mixing two different moments together. Yes, when Christ returns the separation is final. No Christian disagrees with that. The problem is when you take that truth and turn it into a pre return probation closing that Scripture never teaches.

Jesus Himself said the separation happens when He arrives, not before.

“When the Son of Man shall come in His glory… He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats” ~Matthew 25:31 through 32.

There is no gap, no worldwide cutoff before His appearing. The separation happens at His coming. Period.

Hebrews 9:27 keeps it even simpler. A person’s opportunity to repent ends at death, not at some pre return global moment. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” The Bible never moves that deadline.

Your statement implies everyone must be judged before Christ leaves heaven. Scripture never says that. It says He judges when He comes. “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15.

The difference matters, because what you’re describing lines up exactly with the SDA framework. That’s why I keep bringing it up. Not to accuse you, but to keep the conversation inside the boundaries Scripture sets.

I agree with you that the separation is real and final. The Bible says so clearly. But the timing Scripture gives is at His return, not before it. Until that moment, the call still stands: “Now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

Yes, but before any court can impose the sentence, what has to happen. God is just and His justice is true..

 

[David]

Yes, but before any court can impose the sentence, what has to happen. God is just and His justice is true..

God’s justice is perfect, but Scripture tells us when He carries out that justice. The Bible never places a worldwide judgment or probation before Christ returns. It consistently shows judgment being executed at His coming, not before it. Jesus said the separation of the righteous and the wicked happens when the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on His throne, and then He separates the sheep from the goats ~Matthew 25:31 through 32. There is nothing in that passage, or anywhere else, that moves the judgment into a time before His appearing. Hebrews makes the timeline even clearer: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Scripture places the moment of accountability at death for each person, not at a pre return cutoff for the whole world. And Jude says the same thing about timing: “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” ~Jude 14 through 15. God is just, and His justice is true, but the Bible locates that justice at death for the individual and at Christ’s return for the world. Until He comes, the call of salvation remains open: “Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

 

[Yesua888]

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

So there we have it ... this is all panning out as God's will, to agree to our "kingdom" being given to the beast, until Jesus returns!
It is clearly happening NOW, and it is clear that God has used "Man's" technology to ILLUMINATE the evil ... not much more to hide, and nowhere to hide!

 

[Yesua888]

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...

Is there scripture to showing "the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in graves and the 144000 living saints at the second coming" ?
Sorry, I am battling to follow and digest all of this (I have not been studying the bible for very long)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Is this where we live in the air with God for 1000 years ... it is not that clear to me?

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Is there scripture to back this, please : )

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is this in heaven or on earth?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It would seem that Satan is already deceiving the nations ... ?

After the 1000 years in Heaven, we return to this earth in the New Jerusalem and the wicked are resurrected and Satan gathers them together to fight and take the New Jerusalem ...
Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

What does this mean "encompassed the camp of the saints about"?

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.

And this all happens after 1000 years in heaven with God ...
When was Judgement then, before we ascended into the air with God?
Does everyone face judgement?
Any scripture to clear this up?

Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sorry to create more "work" ... maybe someone else can jump in to clear this up for me : )

 

[Yesua888]

God’s justice is perfect, but Scripture tells us when He carries out that justice. The Bible never places a worldwide judgment or probation before Christ returns. It consistently shows judgment being executed at His coming, not before it. Is this judgement before we meet Him in the air, and is there clear scripture that indicated that we stay in the AIR with Him for 1000 years? Does Jesus return after that, and then Judgement occurs? Jesus said the separation of the righteous and the wicked happens when the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on His throne, and then He separates the sheep from the goats ~Matthew 25:31 through 32. There is nothing in that passage, or anywhere else, that moves the judgment into a time before His appearing. When is "His appearing", after being in the air with Him for 1000 years? Hebrews makes the timeline even clearer: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Scripture places the moment of accountability at death for each person, not at a pre return cutoff for the whole world. So at death (sleep) we have judgement, not when the World is judged? And Jude says the same thing about timing: “Behold, the Lord comes… to execute judgment upon all” is this saying the opposite? ~Jude 14 through 15. I found this: " 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: ‘See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’ ... I suppose this means All of us? God is just, and His justice is true, but the Bible locates that justice at death for the individual and at Christ’s return for the world. Would someone please share scripture for this? Until He comes, the call of salvation remains open: “Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation” ~2 Corinthians 6:2.

Thank you in anticipation : )

 

[Mr. GLee]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[bobinfaith]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Good morning, Mr. GLee;

From reading your posts I noticed you emphasize (and I'll paraphrase,) "the God we cannot see" and Scriptura sola. In your personal daily walk, your ministry to your family, the community and sharing the Gospel, how do these two impact your life, in your own words?

God bless you, and thank you for sharing.

bobinfaith

 

[David]

I would offer.

First and foremost "no signs" were given to wonder of follow after. Its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after the things seen . Hope less-- dead hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

The ones that were not trusting prophecy (sola scriptura) made Jesus the son of man into a circus seal. Do a trick perform a miracle then and not before we will believe for a half a second.

A few verse that I think support no sign was given. other than the sign of the times history repeating itself .

(the law) John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

(the witness) John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.(fulfilled) And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation(666) seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.(666)

Born again believers have prophecy till the end of time . No need to seek after lying signs that cause wonderment just as if true prophecy. Satan working over time today.

The word sign is used 2 times in Revelation .Mark used 9 times which is different than a sign used for instance--- Mark my word what Christ says. "Let there be" come to pass

Like most doctrines they have there start in Genesis. Not Revelation the last chapter

The beast---- natural unconverted mankind. Cain moved by the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning (John 8:44).He slew his born again brother Abel the martyr.

When Cain's punishment was revealed (increased the work load) .Cain tried to talk his way out. as his own lawyer

Genesis 4: 12-13When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Cain then begged for protection from the imagined killers in a hope of easing his pain the increased work load

Genesis 4:14;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Christ knowing Cain was looking for the easy way out "suicide by the Mob"

.Christ declared---- mark my living words what I say comes to pass. The sufferings was the life sentence of sufferings the pains of hell. No early parole

Genesis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (not a sign tattoo. . a symbolic mark ) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The buying and selling having to do with the gospel. We are to buy it and not sell it and with it we miraculously can seek the understanding of Christ.

God sending a famine for hearing the word .Not about food for these bodies of death Look to things not seen (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Mr. GLee, I can understand your argument about deception and people grasping at shadows, but what you posted has several serious problems, and it doesn’t line up with what the Bible actually teaches. For the benefit of everyone else, I will have to be blunt. The Bible never says “no signs” were given. In fact, the miracles of Jesus are repeatedly called “signs.” John says, “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory” ~John 2:11. He also says, “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples… but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ” ~John 20:30–31. Jesus rebuked those who demanded a sign on their terms ~John 4: 48, ~Matthew 16:4, but He still did real signs by the Father’s will. Scripture is clear on that point.

You also turned Jesus’ words about a “wicked and adulterous generation” seeking a sign into a doctrine that “no sign was given” except for allegorical patterns of history. That is not what Jesus said. He said one sign would be given, “the sign of the prophet Jonas” ~Matthew 16: 4, and He went on to explain that as His death and resurrection ~Matthew 12:40. The resurrection is the great sign God has given to the world. We don’t get to disregard that and replace it with an allegorical system the Bible never taught.

You also redefined “the beast” as “natural unconverted mankind” and attached it to Cain. Scripture never gives that as the meaning of the beast. In Daniel and Revelation, the beast stands for kingdoms and specific end time powers ~Daniel 7, ~Revelation 13. On top of that, you tried to tie together “buying and selling” in ~Revelation 13: 17 and “buy the truth, and sell it not” in ~Proverbs 23:23 as if they taught the same doctrine. In Revelation the context is economic control based on the mark of the beast. In Proverbs it is valuing wisdom. They are different subjects completely. We can’t take unrelated verses and try to build a doctrine from them.

Over and over, in your post, you kept redefining terms like “sign,” “mark,” and “beast” with meanings the Bible itself never gives. That is not Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura means we let Scripture interpret Scripture in context and we refuse to go beyond what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6. When everything becomes allegory or potential hidden symbolism, we stop hearing what God actually said and start following human ideas masquerading in biblical language.

So for everyone else reading this, God has not left us without a clear Word. Jesus truly did signs from the Father. His resurrection is the sign of Jonah. Cain’s mark was for physical protection, not a prophetic code to unlock. And the beast and the mark are spoken about in their own context in Revelation. Our job is to believe what Scripture actually says and not to reinvent it.

Mr. GLee, you are welcome to discuss Scripture on this blog, but everything needs to be built on passages used in their proper context. If something is true, we should be able to show that clearly from the verses that are speaking about the doctrine at hand. Otherwise we only create confusion rather than clarity.

 

[Yesua888]

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Would you kindly let me know who the "original Beast" is? thanks Linda : )

 

[bobinfaith]

Then we have the “Image of the Beast” which is a political power that begins to compelling observance of or compliance with a law, or obligation, of a religious nature, I think every one has heard or knows the words “Christian Nationalism” by now. We do not need to look far to see the implementation of the image in the news, with leaders in Cabinet position, Supreme Court, of the Senate and Congress being filled by followers of the original Beast. So the image of the Beast, has been readied, I don’t think I need to say more as we watch it rise and its laws implemented.

Good morning, Hobie;

After reading your opening thread one paragraph caught my attention. The image of the beast (Revelation 13:14-15) represents a political power system that rebels against God.

However, the original beast is not a term in the Bible, nor pointing it "tongue in cheek" to a certain congress, political leader and aligning it to Scripture. This is merely expressing a personal view and applying it conveniently to Biblical Truth.

This has long been a practice amongst Christians and is not a healthy teaching of God's Word. I would encourage anyone to express their opinions transparently, and "distinguish" it to the context of the Scriptures.

Constructively speaking, opinions has it's use and can be a disciple's testimony or witness application from the teaching and principle of the Bible, which is an infallible source of God's Word being the authority, thus Sola Scriptura.

God bless everyone and Happy Thanksgiving.

bobinfaith

 

[Yesua888]

Then will come the Battle of Armageddon which is the final world battle and will happen when Jesus Christ returns,,,

Is there scripture to back this statement, please?

We will then have the Resurrection of the saints lying asleep in the graves and the 144,000 living saints at the second coming, the graves will burst open and the righteous will rise up and together with the saints who have gone through the great tribulation and are still alive, will meet Jesus in the air ...

Who are the 144000 living saints?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It does not say in Thess 17 that we will be with the Lord for 1000 years in heaven, or is there other scripture that says this?
Revelation 20:4. “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
Is there clear scripture to say that the Christ's reign of 1000 years is on earth or in heaven?

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Is the first resurrection not when Jesus came back to earth, after the crucifiction?

The saints and the 144,000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millennium in heaven does the New Jerusalem come down to earth, and the wicked burn in the lake of fire. Contrary to what many have been told, we do not spend the 1000 years on earth wandering about with the wicked...

Is there any scripture that can verify this statement "the saints and the 144000 go to heaven with Christ and His angels and only after 1000 Year Millenium in heaven, does the New Jerusalem come down to earth"?
Is this the rapture or the "reign of Jesus in heaven for 1000 years"?

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. where is this, heaven or earth?
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This is confusing, as it sounds like after the 1000 years of Christs reign, satan is released to deceive the nations all over again?
Isn't satan deceiving the nations on earth, right now?
Then I found this "Revelation 21:1-3: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God'"
IT SEEMS THAT THERE IS A WHOLE BIBLE STUDY NEEDED FOR THIS ...

Revelation 20:9-10
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If the saints go to heaven for a 1000 years with Christ (as mentioned above), that must be the rapture of the dead, the 144 000 and "the saints that were still alive" who rise up and meet Jesus in the clouds. Again, is there scripture that says that at this time, Jesus reigns in heaven for 1000 years or that there is a "rapture"?

So the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, where they are consumed and cease to exist in the second death, and even Satan himself is finally destroyed and will cease to exist.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is the first death?
Wow! this was hard to understand : (

 

[ThomasDGW]

Hello, everybody. I decided to start my posting on this thread about end-time events because I think prophecy is a subject that is on many minds these days and years, and also because the study of prophecy illustrates well the principle of sticking to what the text says.

I have a suggestion: It is helpful to keep each post as concise as possible, focusing on a passage or two of scripture at a time.

The first point I would like to make is that Daniel chapter 2 gives an overview of the governmental history of the world, starting with the world kingdom of Babylon and going on till the kingdom of Christ. This doesn't have the juicy details of the reign of the Beast, but everything has to fit into this framework. This helps us to keep anchored and avoid errors.

The next observation I would like to make is that almost all my life I was shown a drawing of a Babylonian soldier as how the image looked. A few years ago, it dawned on me that the image was almost certainly not of a man. I first had to check to confirm that the text does not say it's a man.(surprise!) And when Nebuchadnezzar saw the image in his dream, it gave him a fright. Wait! The commander of the Babylonian army, frightened by the image of a soldier? No way! This image was a monster. No folded arms needed to keep the Medes and Persians from extending into Greece. No need to imagine that man-sized legs fade away before the end because they would be too short to represent all the time from the Greek kingdom's fall until today.

Well, the text doesn't say what the image was of. But if we just stop imposing the image of a man, the text makes better sense. For example, the belly through the thighs represent the third bronze kingdom, which Daniel chapter 8 informs us is Greece. But both Daniel 7 and 8 tell us that the third kingdom was divided into 4, while Daniel chapter 11 speaks of 2 divisions, which would correspond to the two thighs. This gives us the impression that this image is not precise and we thus tend to brush it aside. But wait! This could be a naked image of some monster which would have 2 shorter appendages, a short tail being one,...no, my friends, we don't to make a picture of this for children to color! Sorry, teachers, but our consolation is that we can get more clarity from this overview of the whole of history.

And what do the legs below the thighs represent? Everybody says, Rome, but what does the Bible say? Surprisingly, Daniel stops naming the kingdoms at Greece. We know that by the time Jesus was born, Rome was ruling Judea westward, but Rome was not divided at that time. So, it seems that only one of the legs was Rome. The rest of the world was governed by another kingdom.

Not only that, the dream of Daniel 2 says that the legs, feet, and toes extend to the kingdom of Christ, and Rome fell apart as a kingdom long ago. I can only see one possibility: The legs have different names, which have changed throughout history. And those legs were very long.

Okay, what do you all think of this so far?

 

[Yesua888]

Thanks Thomas,
This is so interesting ...
I read what Daniel said to the king, and I must say that I cannot make head or tail of it; what the gold, bronze, metals and clay are actually telling the king ... perhaps I have more to read up on this or wait for some knowledgeable person to respond : )

 

[ThomasDGW]

Thanks Thomas,
This is so interesting ...
I read what Daniel said to the king, and I must say that I cannot make head or tail of it; what the gold, bronze, metals and clay are actually telling the king ... perhaps I have more to read up on this or wait for some knowledgeable person to respond : )

My advice to you is to follow the advice given in James 1:5, and keep reading and rereading Daniel 2 itself until it is clear. I am just pointing out things for you all to check for yourselves.

 

[David]

Okay, what do you all think of this so far?

Hello Thomas and welcome to BTF. I agree with your opening principle that we should stick closely to what Scripture actually says. However, I believe some of the conclusions that follow go beyond the text rather than remaining anchored to it.

Daniel does not specifically call the image a man or a soldier, but the description is plainly human in form. It has a head, breast, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet, and toes:

“Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee” (Daniel 2:31).

Nothing in the passage suggests a monster, a tail, extra appendages, or any other unusual anatomy. Those details would have to be supplied by our imagination. Nebuchadnezzar’s fear also does not prove the image was monstrous. He was troubled by the dream and its meaning, especially because it revealed the rise and fall of kingdoms and the eventual destruction of human government.

Daniel himself explains the metals as successive kingdoms. Babylon was the head of gold. After Babylon would come another kingdom, then a third kingdom of brass, followed by a fourth kingdom:

“And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron” (Daniel 2:39–40).

Daniel 8 identifies the Medo-Persian and Greek kingdoms by name:

“The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia” (Daniel 8:20–21).

That gives us Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The fourth kingdom must come after Greece. Scripture also shows that Rome ruled when Christ came. Caesar Augustus ordered the taxation connected with Christ’s birth, and the Jewish leaders later spoke openly about the Romans taking away their nation and place (Luke 2:1; John 11:48).

There is no biblical basis for saying that only one leg was Rome while the other represented a completely different kingdom. The two legs may represent some later division, but Daniel does not directly explain them that way. We should not state as fact what Scripture leaves unexplained.

I agree that traditional drawings should never control our interpretation. But rejecting one man-made picture does not give us permission to replace it with another man-made picture. We must remain with what is written. The passage reveals successive kingdoms ending with the kingdom established by God:

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44).

That is the main point of the vision. Human kingdoms rise and fall, but Christ’s kingdom will destroy them all and stand forever.

 

[David]

My advice to you is to follow the advice given in James 1:5, and keep reading and rereading Daniel 2 itself until it is clear. I am just pointing out things for you all to check for yourselves.

Note: James 1:5 is not an invitation to philosophical speculation or to imagine details God has not revealed. The wisdom James speaks of comes from God and agrees with what He has already made known in His Word.

God’s kingdom isn’t actually the main point of Daniel 2. The focus of the chapter is the certainty of God’ s everlasting kingdom. The metals and body parts provide the foundation for successive human kingdoms, but the stone is the climax of the chapter. Human empires can seem glorious, powerful, and terrifying, but every single one will come crashing down. Only God’s kingdom will remain.

The point is straightforward: God reveals truth. God appoints rulers. God is in control of history. Human kingdoms are temporary. His kingdom will one day pulverize every earthly government and reign forever. We should treat anything more than what Daniel specifically reveals as speculation, not biblical fact.

 

[ThomasDGW]

Note: James 1:5 is not an invitation to philosophical speculation or to imagine details God has not revealed. The wisdom James speaks of comes from God and agrees with what He has already made known in His Word.

God’s kingdom isn’t actually the main point of Daniel 2. The focus of the chapter is the certainty of God’ s everlasting kingdom. The metals and body parts provide the foundation for successive human kingdoms, but the stone is the climax of the chapter. Human empires can seem glorious, powerful, and terrifying, but every single one will come crashing down. Only God’s kingdom will remain.

The point is straightforward: God reveals truth. God appoints rulers. God is in control of history. Human kingdoms are temporary. His kingdom will one day pulverize every earthly government and reign forever. We should treat anything more than what Daniel specifically reveals as speculation, not biblical fact.

I was not referring to philosophical speculation. yesua888 was asking for understanding after being unable to make sense of Daniel 2. I was saying to this person, you ask God for wisdom and you read it till it makes sense you. In other words, don't depend on me to tell you what it means

 

[ThomasDGW]

Hello Thomas and welcome to BTF. I agree with your opening principle that we should stick closely to what Scripture actually says. However, I believe some of the conclusions that follow go beyond the text rather than remaining anchored to it.

Daniel does not specifically call the image a man or a soldier, but the description is plainly human in form. It has a head, breast, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet, and toes:

“Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee” (Daniel 2:31).

Nothing in the passage suggests a monster, a tail, extra appendages, or any other unusual anatomy. Those details would have to be supplied by our imagination. Nebuchadnezzar’s fear also does not prove the image was monstrous. He was troubled by the dream and its meaning, especially because it revealed the rise and fall of kingdoms and the eventual destruction of human government.

Daniel himself explains the metals as successive kingdoms. Babylon was the head of gold. After Babylon would come another kingdom, then a third kingdom of brass, followed by a fourth kingdom:

“And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron” (Daniel 2:39–40).

Daniel 8 identifies the Medo-Persian and Greek kingdoms by name:

“The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia” (Daniel 8:20–21).

That gives us Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The fourth kingdom must come after Greece. Scripture also shows that Rome ruled when Christ came. Caesar Augustus ordered the taxation connected with Christ’s birth, and the Jewish leaders later spoke openly about the Romans taking away their nation and place (Luke 2:1; John 11:48).

There is no biblical basis for saying that only one leg was Rome while the other represented a completely different kingdom. The two legs may represent some later division, but Daniel does not directly explain them that way. We should not state as fact what Scripture leaves unexplained.

I agree that traditional drawings should never control our interpretation. But rejecting one man-made picture does not give us permission to replace it with another man-made picture. We must remain with what is written. The passage reveals successive kingdoms ending with the kingdom established by God:

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44).

That is the main point of the vision. Human kingdoms rise and fall, but Christ’s kingdom will destroy them all and stand forever.

 

[ThomasDGW]

My opening principle is what I am doing. Daniel 2:31 told the king that the FORM of the image was fear causing. The root of the Aramaic word comes from the concept of creep; the image was quite literally "creepy". "Excellent brightness" is a rather euphemistic translation. Earlier, the king had only confessed that he was anxious to know the meaning. Daniel revealed more.

The image is described in terms that COULD be human, but Daniel's Aramaic description should take precedence. So, when I said that the image was of a monster, I was not going beyond the text.

The text also says that the 3rd kingdom was represented by the lower torso and upper legs. Daniel 7 and 8 tell us that this 3rd kingdom was divided into 4 parts, but later Daniel 11 speaks of only two divisions. If the image had two arms for the Medes and Persians and two thighs for the north and south kingdoms, but did not have 4 body divisions for the Biblically revealed 4 divisions, then the image would give a somewhat imperfect representation of the kingdoms. The indication from Daniel that the shape of the image caused fear points away from a man, who does not normally have a division into 4, to a monster, who could well have a division into 4. This, plus the additional possibility that the legs could be very long, makes it probable that this image illustrated the history of government in a very precise way.

This leads me to say that since there are already two divisions of human government when Rome entered the scene, and since Rome was not divided in 2 parts like Greece at that stage, there must have been another kingdom that shared world government. I actually learned what it was, but I will leave that for you to find.

Once we realize that only one leg was Rome and we are not going to invent a disappearance of the legs, we are forced to admit that the legs have changed names. Then we can look at the current world situation and get a good idea of where we are in the progression. This will prevent an error in the understanding of other prophecies.

I do not accept your implication that the main point of the vision is the only point that is profitable to consider. When I understood how precise this outline of history is, my amazement and worship of God increased. I also realized where I think we are in the progression and I am watching current events very closely to fine adjust my understanding.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello, everybody. I decided to start my posting on this thread about end-time events because I think prophecy is a subject that is on many minds these days and years, and also because the study of prophecy illustrates well the principle of sticking to what the text says.

I have a suggestion: It is helpful to keep each post as concise as possible, focusing on a passage or two of scripture at a time.

The first point I would like to make is that Daniel chapter 2 gives an overview of the governmental history of the world, starting with the world kingdom of Babylon and going on till the kingdom of Christ. This doesn't have the juicy details of the reign of the Beast, but everything has to fit into this framework. This helps us to keep anchored and avoid errors.

The next observation I would like to make is that almost all my life I was shown a drawing of a Babylonian soldier as how the image looked. A few years ago, it dawned on me that the image was almost certainly not of a man. I first had to check to confirm that the text does not say it's a man.(surprise!) And when Nebuchadnezzar saw the image in his dream, it gave him a fright. Wait! The commander of the Babylonian army, frightened by the image of a soldier? No way! This image was a monster. No folded arms needed to keep the Medes and Persians from extending into Greece. No need to imagine that man-sized legs fade away before the end because they would be too short to represent all the time from the Greek kingdom's fall until today.

Well, the text doesn't say what the image was of. But if we just stop imposing the image of a man, the text makes better sense. For example, the belly through the thighs represent the third bronze kingdom, which Daniel chapter 8 informs us is Greece. But both Daniel 7 and 8 tell us that the third kingdom was divided into 4, while Daniel chapter 11 speaks of 2 divisions, which would correspond to the two thighs. This gives us the impression that this image is not precise and we thus tend to brush it aside. But wait! This could be a naked image of some monster which would have 2 shorter appendages, a short tail being one,...no, my friends, we don't to make a picture of this for children to color! Sorry, teachers, but our consolation is that we can get more clarity from this overview of the whole of history.

And what do the legs below the thighs represent? Everybody says, Rome, but what does the Bible say? Surprisingly, Daniel stops naming the kingdoms at Greece. We know that by the time Jesus was born, Rome was ruling Judea westward, but Rome was not divided at that time. So, it seems that only one of the legs was Rome. The rest of the world was governed by another kingdom.

Not only that, the dream of Daniel 2 says that the legs, feet, and toes extend to the kingdom of Christ, and Rome fell apart as a kingdom long ago. I can only see one possibility: The legs have different names, which have changed throughout history. And those legs were very long.

Okay, what do you all think of this so far?

My opening principle is what I am doing. Daniel 2:31 told the king that the FORM of the image was fear causing. The root of the Aramaic word comes from the concept of creep; the image was quite literally "creepy". "Excellent brightness" is a rather euphemistic translation. Earlier, the king had only confessed that he was anxious to know the meaning. Daniel revealed more.

The image is described in terms that COULD be human, but Daniel's Aramaic description should take precedence. So, when I said that the image was of a monster, I was not going beyond the text.

The text also says that the 3rd kingdom was represented by the lower torso and upper legs. Daniel 7 and 8 tell us that this 3rd kingdom was divided into 4 parts, but later Daniel 11 speaks of only two divisions. If the image had two arms for the Medes and Persians and two thighs for the north and south kingdoms, but did not have 4 body divisions for the Biblically revealed 4 divisions, then the image would give a somewhat imperfect representation of the kingdoms. The indication from Daniel that the shape of the image caused fear points away from a man, who does not normally have a division into 4, to a monster, who could well have a division into 4. This, plus the additional possibility that the legs could be very long, makes it probable that this image illustrated the history of government in a very precise way.

This leads me to say that since there are already two divisions of human government when Rome entered the scene, and since Rome was not divided in 2 parts like Greece at that stage, there must have been another kingdom that shared world government. I actually learned what it was, but I will leave that for you to find.

Once we realize that only one leg was Rome and we are not going to invent a disappearance of the legs, we are forced to admit that the legs have changed names. Then we can look at the current world situation and get a good idea of where we are in the progression. This will prevent an error in the understanding of other prophecies.

I do not accept your implication that the main point of the vision is the only point that is profitable to consider. When I understood how precise this outline of history is, my amazement and worship of God increased. I also realized where I think we are in the progression and I am watching current events very closely to fine adjust my understanding.

Hello ThomasDGW;

You clearly shared your observation, interpretation, understanding and what this passage says to you. For that I commend you for your outline.

So why are you getting defensive in your last paragraph? You gave everyone an opportunity to share "what they think so far" and that's exactly how other posters responded.

ThomasDGW, you may want to "receive" other's views from whatever you share and don't be so quick to "react," or offer advice when in fact noone asked, but only what other's thought of your posts.

God bless you, brother, and your whole family.

Bob

 

[David]

My opening principle is what I am doing. Daniel 2:31 told the king that the FORM of the image was fear causing. The root of the Aramaic word comes from the concept of creep; the image was quite literally "creepy". "Excellent brightness" is a rather euphemistic translation. Earlier, the king had only confessed that he was anxious to know the meaning. Daniel revealed more.

The image is described in terms that COULD be human, but Daniel's Aramaic description should take precedence. So, when I said that the image was of a monster, I was not going beyond the text.

The text also says that the 3rd kingdom was represented by the lower torso and upper legs. Daniel 7 and 8 tell us that this 3rd kingdom was divided into 4 parts, but later Daniel 11 speaks of only two divisions. If the image had two arms for the Medes and Persians and two thighs for the north and south kingdoms, but did not have 4 body divisions for the Biblically revealed 4 divisions, then the image would give a somewhat imperfect representation of the kingdoms. The indication from Daniel that the shape of the image caused fear points away from a man, who does not normally have a division into 4, to a monster, who could well have a division into 4. This, plus the additional possibility that the legs could be very long, makes it probable that this image illustrated the history of government in a very precise way.

This leads me to say that since there are already two divisions of human government when Rome entered the scene, and since Rome was not divided in 2 parts like Greece at that stage, there must have been another kingdom that shared world government. I actually learned what it was, but I will leave that for you to find.

Once we realize that only one leg was Rome and we are not going to invent a disappearance of the legs, we are forced to admit that the legs have changed names. Then we can look at the current world situation and get a good idea of where we are in the progression. This will prevent an error in the understanding of other prophecies.

I do not accept your implication that the main point of the vision is the only point that is profitable to consider. When I understood how precise this outline of history is, my amazement and worship of God increased. I also realized where I think we are in the progression and I am watching current events very closely to fine adjust my understanding.

You said your opening principle is to stay with Scripture and let Daniel’s words take precedence. That is exactly what we do here on Biblical Truth Forum. We welcome careful examination of every detail God revealed, but every claim must be demonstrated from the text.

The problem is that you are still taking what Daniel says, adding what the image might possibly mean, and then treating that possibility as though Daniel revealed it.

Daniel 2:31 says the image’s appearance was frightening. Even if we grant the strongest possible wording, “frightening” does not mean “monster.” A human-shaped image of enormous size, blazing brightness, and terrifying appearance would certainly have frightened Nebuchadnezzar. The text describes a head, breast, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet, and toes. Those are human body parts. Daniel never says it had a monstrous shape, four lower-body divisions, unusually long legs, or any other anatomical abnormality.

You repeatedly say the image “could” have been a monster, the legs “could” have been very long, and the body “could” have contained additional divisions. But then “could be” becomes “probable,” and “probable” becomes something we are supposedly “forced” to admit. Scripture does not permit that leap.

Daniel himself explains the image:

“Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron” (Daniel 2:38–40).

Daniel identifies four kingdoms by the four metals. He does not say that every arm, thigh, leg, foot, and toe represents an independent kingdom or geopolitical power. The head is specifically identified with Nebuchadnezzar, but Daniel never says one arm is Media, the other Persia, one thigh is one Greek kingdom, and the other thigh another.

Daniel 8 describes four kingdoms arising from the Greek empire after the great horn was broken. That does not require Daniel 2’s image to contain four separate anatomical divisions. Daniel 2 presents the third empire as one kingdom of brass. Daniel 8 later supplies more detail about its division. Different visions can reveal different levels of detail without every later subdivision being represented in the statue’s anatomy.

Your conclusion that only one leg was Rome is not something the text forces anyone to admit. Daniel never identifies either leg separately. He identifies the iron as the fourth kingdom. You have created a problem by insisting that every limb must represent a separate government, then attempted to solve that problem by introducing another unnamed kingdom.

You also said you learned what that other kingdom was but would leave it for others to find. That is not a biblical argument. If Daniel reveals another world kingdom sharing the iron stage with Rome, then name it and show the passage. A hidden conclusion offered as a riddle is not proof.

I did not say the main point of the vision is the only point worth considering. Every detail God revealed is profitable. What is not profitable is attaching meanings to details that God never interpreted.

The danger becomes especially clear when you say you are watching current events to “fine adjust” your understanding. That reverses the proper order. We do not adjust our interpretation of Scripture to fit the news. We judge every claim by what Scripture actually says. Current events change constantly, but “the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8).

Daniel 2 gives us successive human kingdoms, the divided condition represented in the feet and toes, and the final destruction of human rule by the kingdom God establishes:

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44).

There is plenty in the text to produce amazement and worship without inventing monsters, unnamed kingdoms, single Roman legs, changing leg names, or prophetic timelines adjusted by today’s headlines.

If Scripture says it, we accept it. If Scripture necessarily implies it, we can demonstrate the reasoning. But when the text is silent, we must not turn speculation into biblical certainty; that is how deception creeps into the church. That is the standard here on BTF, and it is the same standard you said you wanted to follow.

 

[David]

@ThomasDGW, there is nothing wrong with discussing possibilities as long as they are clearly presented as speculation and not as the definite meaning of the passage. The concern comes when a possibility becomes “probable,” then “necessary,” and finally something others are said to be “forced” to accept.

We can certainly examine ideas together, but we need to keep a clear line between what Daniel actually reveals and what we think might be possible. Where Scripture speaks, we can be certain. Where Scripture is silent, we should simply say, “This is only a possibility.”

 

[ThomasDGW]

The 3rd kingdom of brass of Daniel 2 is not SAID to be divided there. It is only hinted at by the termination in thighs, plural.

But the 3rd kingdom is indicated in chapter 11 as being Greece divided into north and south at its end. It could be claimed that this fact does not require that the image of Daniel 2 showed that division. But when you look back at Daniel 2, it WAS shown by its termination being in the thighs.

That observation changes the hint of division in the description of the image in Daniel 2 into a confirmed fact.

This gives a basis for two other possibilities to become probabilities 1. Since the division into 2 was shown in the God-given image, the division into 4 also was probably also shown in the image. The only reason to doubt this is an apriori committment to the image being of a man.

2. Since the two thighs DID illustrate a real two-fold division of powers in the latter Greek kingdom, the continuation of the two legs probably illustrates a two-fold division of the entire iron kingdom.

You are rebuking me for refining my understanding by looking at current events, as if I am subjecting God's revelation to man's actions. That is a distortion. This is a case where we are given an outline in the form of an image, and given some revealed details about some of that outline. This gives us a basis for some estimation as to the most likely working out of this in history. But not all is certain, and many details, such as names, are not given.

So, because this probability, that the iron kingdom has been divided in two from the beginning, was not 100% sure, it is appropriate to look further. Some of the answer is in the Bible. The first question, Was Rome itself divided, as Greece was? receives the answer, No, from what we learn about the government in the Gospels and Acts. The next question, Was Rome the only power in the world? has a hinted answer, No, in the wise men from the east. Further study of history confirms the, No, and this probability #2 becomes a confirmed certainty. At this point, I state with certainty that Rome was only one of the legs.

A 3rd probability is contained in the image. That is that the iron kingdom continues uninterrupted until Christ brings in His kingdom. We first see confirmation of this in history with the development of the Byzantine Empire. The divided powers come into higher visibility. And when Rome collapsed, it remained firm for centuries more. That fact alone shows that the legs never faded away. And the Holy Roman Empire took over the western power. When the Byzantine Empire fell, Russia was poised to pick up the reins of the east, etc. Now there is no doubt for me. The 2-part iron kingdom continues.

Who or what is next? The ten final kings, the toes of the image are on the way. What is uncertain is how much longer, and in what form will the feet, the iron and clay kingdom will continue. I am not evaluating whether or not the ten toes are coming by current events, I am estimating the path to them, and the role China might play. I am looking into what we should do to prepare for this upheaval leading to the Great Tribulation with the ten toes and the Beast. My certainty is based on the confidence that the image of Daniel 2 is precise and accurate.

 

[David]

The 3rd kingdom of brass of Daniel 2 is not SAID to be divided there. It is only hinted at by the termination in thighs, plural.

But the 3rd kingdom is indicated in chapter 11 as being Greece divided into north and south at its end. It could be claimed that this fact does not require that the image of Daniel 2 showed that division. But when you look back at Daniel 2, it WAS shown by its termination being in the thighs.

That observation changes the hint of division in the description of the image in Daniel 2 into a confirmed fact.

This gives a basis for two other possibilities to become probabilities 1. Since the division into 2 was shown in the God-given image, the division into 4 also was probably also shown in the image. The only reason to doubt this is an apriori committment to the image being of a man.

2. Since the two thighs DID illustrate a real two-fold division of powers in the latter Greek kingdom, the continuation of the two legs probably illustrates a two-fold division of the entire iron kingdom.

You are rebuking me for refining my understanding by looking at current events, as if I am subjecting God's revelation to man's actions. That is a distortion. This is a case where we are given an outline in the form of an image, and given some revealed details about some of that outline. This gives us a basis for some estimation as to the most likely working out of this in history. But not all is certain, and many details, such as names, are not given.

So, because this probability, that the iron kingdom has been divided in two from the beginning, was not 100% sure, it is appropriate to look further. Some of the answer is in the Bible. The first question, Was Rome itself divided, as Greece was? receives the answer, No, from what we learn about the government in the Gospels and Acts. The next question, Was Rome the only power in the world? has a hinted answer, No, in the wise men from the east. Further study of history confirms the, No, and this probability #2 becomes a confirmed certainty. At this point, I state with certainty that Rome was only one of the legs.

A 3rd probability is contained in the image. That is that the iron kingdom continues uninterrupted until Christ brings in His kingdom. We first see confirmation of this in history with the development of the Byzantine Empire. The divided powers come into higher visibility. And when Rome collapsed, it remained firm for centuries more. That fact alone shows that the legs never faded away. And the Holy Roman Empire took over the western power. When the Byzantine Empire fell, Russia was poised to pick up the reins of the east, etc. Now there is no doubt for me. The 2-part iron kingdom continues.

Who or what is next? The ten final kings, the toes of the image are on the way. What is uncertain is how much longer, and in what form will the feet, the iron and clay kingdom will continue. I am not evaluating whether or not the ten toes are coming by current events, I am estimating the path to them, and the role China might play. I am looking into what we should do to prepare for this upheaval leading to the Great Tribulation with the ten toes and the Beast. My certainty is based on the confidence that the image of Daniel 2 is precise and accurate.

I have no problem with you studying history, comparing passages, or offering possible interpretations. There is room to discuss whether the thighs, legs, feet, and toes may correspond to later divisions in history.

The issue is not speculation. The issue is when speculation is presented as confirmed biblical certainty.

You said: “Further study of history confirms the, No, and this probability #2 becomes a confirmed certainty.”

You also said: “At this point, I state with certainty that Rome was only one of the legs.”

And again: “Now there is no doubt for me. The 2-part iron kingdom continues.”

Those statements go beyond saying, “This is how I presently understand it,” or, “I believe this may fit the prophecy.” You are declaring certainty about something Daniel never directly states.

You admit that the third kingdom “is not SAID to be divided” in Daniel 2. Daniel’s inspired explanation says: “And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth” (Daniel 2:39).

Daniel does not say that the two thighs represent the kings of the north and south. Daniel 11 later describes conflict between northern and southern kingdoms, but it never says those kingdoms were symbolized by the two thighs in Daniel 2.

Daniel 11:4 also says the Greek kingdom would be “divided toward the four winds of heaven,” not merely into two parts. The prophecy later focuses upon the kings of the north and south, but that does not prove that the thighs in Daniel 2 represented those two powers.

The same problem applies to the legs. Daniel says: “And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron” (Daniel 2:40).

He calls it one kingdom. Daniel never says one leg is Rome and the other is a separate eastern power. He never identifies Byzantium, the Holy Roman Empire, Russia, or China as continuations of the legs.

The kingdom is specifically called divided when Daniel reaches the feet and toes: “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided” (Daniel 2:41).

Daniel bases that division upon the mixture of iron and clay. He does not say the kingdom was divided from the beginning because the image had two legs.

You may believe that the history of Rome, Byzantium, the Holy Roman Empire, and Russia fits the image. You are free to present that as an interpretation and explain why you think it fits. But history cannot turn an interpretation that Scripture never states into revealed certainty.

There is a difference between saying, “This may be what the image represents,” and saying, “This is confirmed certainty.” The first leaves the interpretation open to biblical examination. The second gives the interpretation an authority that the text itself does not give it.

The image is precise and the prophecy is true, but that does not mean every anatomical feature must have a separate prophetic meaning. If the two thighs and two legs must represent political divisions simply because there are two of them, then we would also need inspired meanings for the arms, hands, fingers, knees, and other features. Daniel does not interpret the image that way.

So continue discussing the possibilities. That is perfectly acceptable. Just distinguish clearly between what Daniel states, what may reasonably be inferred, and what remains speculation.

The certainty of Daniel 2 is what God actually revealed: “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44).

That is biblical certainty. The proposed identity and historical continuation of each leg is interpretation and should be presented as such.

 

[ThomasDGW]

There are two equally bad errors. The first is to believe something on insufficient evidence. The second error is to refuse to believe something when there is sufficient evidence.

You have adopted a principle that you cannot be confident in anything that is not explicitly stated in Scripture. That is what you call not going beyond Scripture.

What I call not going beyond Scripture is to not pass any barriers set in Scripture. On areas of doctrine, the revealed rules governing God's work, we cannot do anything except take the statements that God has revealed. However, in areas touching on our life where we observe things, there is a degree of latitude where we should do some investigation to fill in details not included in Scripture.

In the area of prophecy, there is no place where the name of the first king of the bronze kingdom is named. Do you rebuke someone who says he knows that his name was Alexander because that is going beyond Scripture? I hope not. Scripture describes him in sufficient detail that as history has passed, there was only one individual, Alexander, that could have possibly fulfilled that role.

I follow Scripture strictly by observing that the prophecy says that the iron kingdom will rule the earth. Then I am able to look at who is ruling the earth and see that Rome was unified, yet shared its governance wirh another kingdom. That tells me that the governance was divided, and it fits the image with two legs. Nothing in Scripture contradicts it, so I confidently accept that.

This statement is simply wrong: "Daniel does not say that the two thighs represent the kings of the north and south. Daniel 11 later describes conflict between northern and southern kingdoms, but it never says those kingdoms were symbolized by the two thighs in Daniel 2."

Daniel 2 says that the end of the Greek kingdom is represented by the two thighs. Daniel 11 says that the end of the Greek kingdom is the north king against the south king. Therefore, the north king against the south king is represented or symbolized by the two thighs.

You are advocating a type of agnosticism where you cannot be sure of vast swaths of Scripture, such as most of Daniel 2. I will not follow you there.

 

[ThomasDGW]

Here is a question for you. Dsniel 2:38 tells us that God made Nebuchadnezzar ruler over the whole earth, wherever the children of men dwell. Does that mean that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Americas and Australia?

 

[David]

There are two equally bad errors. The first is to believe something on insufficient evidence. The second error is to refuse to believe something when there is sufficient evidence.

You have adopted a principle that you cannot be confident in anything that is not explicitly stated in Scripture. That is what you call not going beyond Scripture.

What I call not going beyond Scripture is to not pass any barriers set in Scripture. On areas of doctrine, the revealed rules governing God's work, we cannot do anything except take the statements that God has revealed. However, in areas touching on our life where we observe things, there is a degree of latitude where we should do some investigation to fill in details not included in Scripture.

In the area of prophecy, there is no place where the name of the first king of the bronze kingdom is named. Do you rebuke someone who says he knows that his name was Alexander because that is going beyond Scripture? I hope not. Scripture describes him in sufficient detail that as history has passed, there was only one individual, Alexander, that could have possibly fulfilled that role.

I follow Scripture strictly by observing that the prophecy says that the iron kingdom will rule the earth. Then I am able to look at who is ruling the earth and see that Rome was unified, yet shared its governance wirh another kingdom. That tells me that the governance was divided, and it fits the image with two legs. Nothing in Scripture contradicts it, so I confidently accept that.

This statement is simply wrong: "Daniel does not say that the two thighs represent the kings of the north and south. Daniel 11 later describes conflict between northern and southern kingdoms, but it never says those kingdoms were symbolized by the two thighs in Daniel 2."

Daniel 2 says that the end of the Greek kingdom is represented by the two thighs. Daniel 11 says that the end of the Greek kingdom is the north king against the south king. Therefore, the north king against the south king is represented or symbolized by the two thighs.

You are advocating a type of agnosticism where you cannot be sure of vast swaths of Scripture, such as most of Daniel 2. I will not follow you there.

That is not the principle I am advocating, and calling it “agnosticism” does not answer the issue. I am not saying we can only know what Scripture states in one explicit sentence. I am saying we must distinguish between what Scripture explicitly says, what it necessarily implies, and what we infer from details the text itself never interprets.

Alexander is not a valid comparison. Daniel 8:21 identifies the kingdom as Greece and says, “the great horn between his eyes is the first king.” The prophecy then describes that king’s fall and the division that follows. History supplies an identification that matches those revealed details. That is very different from assigning a prophetic meaning to the number of thighs when Daniel never interprets the thighs separately.

Daniel 2 does not say, as you claim, that “the end of the Greek kingdom is represented by the two thighs.” It says, “the belly and thighs of bronze” and then interprets the bronze as “a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth” (Daniel 2:32, 39, ESV). It never says the belly represents one stage, the thighs another stage, or the two thighs the northern and southern divisions.

Daniel 11 describes conflicts between kings of the north and south, but it never connects them to the thighs of Daniel 2. Your conclusion depends upon an unstated premise: that every anatomical division in the image must represent a corresponding political division. Daniel never gives us that rule.

The image also has two arms, two legs, ten fingers, and ten toes. We cannot confidently assign separate prophetic meanings to every paired body part unless the inspired interpretation gives us grounds to do so. The fact that an interpretation is possible, fits a historical reconstruction, and is not directly contradicted does not make it biblically certain. “Nothing contradicts it” is not the same thing as “Scripture confirms it.”

You are free to offer the thighs as a possible picture of the later Greek division. I have no problem with carefully labeled speculation. My objection is when an inference is presented as a confirmed fact and those who refuse to call it certain are accused of refusing Scripture. I am not refusing Scripture. I am refusing to make Scripture say more than Daniel actually revealed.

 

[David]

@ThomasDGW, I believe I have been clear, but let me state my position plainly one more time.​

I am not saying that we can only know something when Scripture states it in one explicit sentence. Scripture can establish truth by direct statement, by necessary implication, and by comparing one passage with another. What I reject is taking a possible inference and presenting it as though Scripture itself has confirmed it.

There is nothing wrong with examining history, comparing passages, or proposing an interpretation. The problem begins when someone says, “This is what the Bible says,” when the Bible never actually makes that identification.

That is the issue with the two thighs. Daniel tells us that the bronze represents the third kingdom. Daniel 11 later describes kings of the north and south. But Daniel never says that the two thighs symbolize those two kingdoms. That connection may be possible. It may even seem probable to you. But possible and probable are not the same as biblically certain.

I have never rebuked you for speculating. I have only said that speculation should be presented honestly as speculation, not elevated into a confirmed fact and then used to accuse others of rejecting Scripture because they will not affirm it.

So the disagreement is not whether we may reason from Scripture. We should. The disagreement is whether the Bible clearly teaches your conclusion, or whether it is only your interpretation. I do not believe it is. You are free to hold it as an interpretation, but you should not say Daniel confirms it when Daniel never actually does.

 

[David]

Here is a question for you. Dsniel 2:38 tells us that God made Nebuchadnezzar ruler over the whole earth, wherever the children of men dwell. Does that mean that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Americas and Australia?

No, I do not believe Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Americas and Australia. Daniel is speaking about the dominion God gave him within the world and nations being addressed in the prophecy. Scripture sometimes uses broad language like that. Luke 2:1 says that “all the world should be taxed,” but Caesar Augustus was not taxing every person on every continent.

But that still does not prove what you are claiming about the two thighs. Daniel plainly tells us that Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. The text gives us that meaning. Daniel also tells us that the bronze represents the third kingdom. What Daniel never says is that the two thighs represent the kings of the north and south.

That is a connection you are making by comparing Daniel 2 with Daniel 11. You may believe it fits, and you are free to present it as your interpretation. But you cannot say Daniel confirms it when Daniel never actually says it.

The issue is not whether we must read every word in an overly literal way. The issue is whether we should present our own conclusion as though it is exactly what the Bible teaches. That is where I draw the line. Your conclusion may be possible, but it is still an interpretation, not something Scripture clearly states as fact.

 

[ThomasDGW]

Now everything is clear. I take everything in the Bible as it is stated, plus I understand that prophecies of future events, like statements of the Law, often need to be extrapolated because the scripture cannot contain all of the details, or the Bible would be too big to carry.

Thus, when God states that the head is Nebuchadnezzar, I take that to mean that each of the other pieces of the body also stand for someone, or maybe some group. When God says that each section of metal represents the next kingdom in a time sequence, I take that to mean that the whole image is a time sequence.

So, I take it as settled that the belly is Alexander's kingdom and the thighs are the end of Greece's reign, the divided kingdom, and that since the thighs correspond to a divided kingdom, the legs also correspond to a divided world government.

This has to be what God expects us to do. If we don't do this, we cannot be sure of most of the prophecy, since most of it is not explicitly described as you require to be sure of the conclusion. If there are a significant number of things in the prophecy that we can only speculate about, that we cannot use to illuminate our path with certainty, we are implying that God took the action of giving us scripture with no practical benefit.

So, I am convinced that we have to be able to be sure of everything by the time the end comes, certainly before we face the prophesied events, while you are telling me that many things cannot be sure, because your required proof methods are not present.

Then you confirm what I thought, that you back off from an "overly literal" reading when it implies something like Nebuchadnezzar ruling over Australia.

You rebuke me for being sure about extrapolating a stated relationship for one part of the image to the whole image, even when such a thing has confirmation in history and logic. Yet, you feel so sure that Nebuchadnezzar could not have ruled Australia, that you interpret "the whole world, wherever men dwell" to mean a more limited area.

I have something shocking to tell you. If there were people living in Australia, America, or anywhere else, and Nebuchadnezzar did not rule over them, Daniel prophesied a lie. If Daniel had just said "the whole world", it MIGHT have been possible to say that "world" was used in a limited context. But when he says that the reign extended to any place where men are living, there is no wiggle room.

We will all stand before God and answer for our actions. According to you, I will have to answer for believing and teaching that the government of the iron kingdom was divided in 2 based only on God's image. According to me, you will have to answer for believing and teaching that a direct statement of prophesy was false. You are in trouble.

I will give you a little help for you to repent of your disrespect to God's word. In Bolivia, where I Iive, a stone bowl was found in the highlands by a pig farmer in the 1950s. It had some symbols carved on it, but the pig farmer just used it to slop the pigs, till one day an educated person noticed that they were something like cuneiform writing. They took it to a museum and tried to get language experts to translate the inscription, but without satisfactory results. Finally, a greater expert in ancient languages looked at the photos of the inscription and found that it was a very early writing system that went out of use around 2500 B.C. Once he established the system, he was able to transliterate it, then looked for the language that would give sense to the phonemes. It was an early form of Sumerian and the interpretation is a kind of dedication/instruction of a libation to the goddess Nia, matching the carved figure of a female with legs spread.

The fact that this language and writing system were almost lost from knowledge is evidence against this being a forgery, as are the circumstances of its discovery. It was named La Fuente Magna, and the information is still online.

It tells us that early settlers came to this part of South America before Abraham lived. Hawaian contains some Greek words. In North America, Roman artefacts have been discovered, as well as Roman style breakwaters in the Bahamas. Men were traveling all over the world from ancient times, and Nebuchadnezzar was certainly aware of the whole world. The fact that he ruled over the whole world does not mean that he personally visited every place, and the text does not say that he did, but he would have been able to travel.

You have been lied to, and the lies you have believed have caused you to doubt God's word. I hope you have the ability to hear my warnings.

 

[David]

You have been lied to, and the lies you have believed have caused you to doubt God's word. I hope you have the ability to hear my warnings.

I have not rebuked you until now. I corrected your claims, explained the difference between Scripture and speculation, and gave you room to reconsider what you were saying. You have refused correction, continued presenting your deductions as settled revelation, and now you are accusing me of doubting God’s Word. So now I am rebuking you plainly.

You have crossed the line from offering an interpretation into teaching your own deductions as the infallible Word of God and condemning anyone who refuses to accept them. That is false teaching.

God said to Nebuchadnezzar, “You are the head of gold” (Daniel 2:38, ESV). God did not say that every separate body part must represent an individual ruler, nation, or political division. You inserted that rule into the text and then declared your conclusion settled. It is not settled by Scripture. It is settled only in your own mind.

Scripture commands us “not to go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6, ESV). You are going beyond what is written and then accusing others of disrespecting God because they will not follow you beyond it. That is not submission to Scripture. That is presumption.

You claim that your extrapolation “has to be what God expects us to do.” No, it does not. God expects us to believe what He has revealed and to stop where He has not spoken.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever” (Deuteronomy 29:29, ESV).

God did not reveal every detail you demand. That does not make His Word useless. It exposes the pride of the man who refuses to accept the limits God placed upon his knowledge. Scripture was not given to satisfy every speculation. It was given to reveal what God chose to reveal.

You also created a false accusation when you claimed that I am calling Daniel a liar. I said no such thing. You are forcing your modern, wooden definition of “the whole world” upon an ancient text and pretending that anyone who reads the expression according to its biblical context denies inspiration.

Luke 2:1 says, “a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.” Caesar did not register the Americas, Australia, or every person living on earth. Yet Luke did not lie. “All the world” referred to the world under Roman authority in that context. Context determines the scope of the expression, not your demand that it include every inhabited continent.

Your claims about disputed bowls, Roman artifacts, Hawaiian words, and ancient travelers do not establish that Nebuchadnezzar politically ruled every person in North America, South America, Australia, and the islands of the sea. Even if ancient people crossed oceans, that would not prove Babylonian sovereignty over the entire planet. You have abandoned sound interpretation and replaced it with speculation.

Then you told me that I am “in trouble,” that I have been deceived, and that I must repent because I will not accept your extrapolation as divine certainty. Hear the Word of God:

“Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar” (Proverbs 30:6, ESV).

That warning applies here. You are adding conclusions God did not state, presenting them as certain revelation, and condemning those who refuse to call your reasoning the Word of God.

You are free to say, “This is how I understand the image.” You are not free to say, “God has settled this,” when God has not said it. You are not free to accuse others of unbelief because they reject your speculation. You are not defending the authority of Scripture. You are placing your interpretation beside Scripture and demanding equal submission to both.

Stop calling your extrapolations God’s direct revelation. Stop accusing others of doubting Scripture because they will not accept your conclusions. Repent of adding certainty where God has not spoken, and return to the actual words of the text.