What Does The Bible Teach Us About Fallen Humans?

Hello brothers and sisters;

Why do we tend to separate between teaching of the Bible and confronting our personal human lives? Throughout the Old and New Testaments we can be inspired by encouragement from God's promises and faithfulness. We receive God's mercies, forgiveness and grace when we repent of our sin.

However, the moment we put our Bible aside and face opposition (mostly people, world conditions that we cannot control and an attitude that takes away His glory) the Scriptures seem to fall short.

Books such as the Psalms, Proverbs, the Gospels of Jesus' mission, the Application books such as the Paulines and the Reassurance of Revelation tell us, those whose hearts and lives are broken are the people God is closest to. When we hit rock bottom is when God shows favor.

Psalm 34:18, 18 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. - ESV

Proverbs 3:34, 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he shows favor. - RSV

Adults are like "little children" when our tears are seen by Dad and Mom. They pick us up and love us with a lollipop. God is the same way as He sees us from way up on high and tends to us way down when we hit low and cry out to Him.

Problem is adult believers can be too strong (prideful, bruised egos, underlying motives) for God. He sees everything about us and when we display a disingenuous heart during our low points God cannot reveal His strength.

Please read and meditate carefully the book of James 4:1-6, What is the source of wars and fights among you? Don’t they come from the cravings that are at war within you? 2 You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and don’t receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your evil desires. 4 Adulteresses! Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy. 5 Or do you think it’s without reason the Scripture says that the Spirit who lives in us yearns jealously? 6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. - HCSB

When we hit bottom it can bring out truthfulness, we can come to our senses with humbleness and humility. Our self check can reveal we need to repent where we may fall short with God. We don't always see our sin (from the heart and mind.) When we see ourselves we have that opportunity to turn from self (repentance,) our faith turns us back to Jesus. Repentance equates to faith.

I find this attitude can bring me closer to Jesus by having an honest conversation and confession (prayers) with Him. There's always something that triggers a downfall and broken heart (life, relationships and how we respond to uncontrollable situations.)

I'm not afraid to let my brokenness bring me down (it's going to happen) because I have all the faith God is watching my every move and thought. Time and time again there are always lessons to learn, and time and time again He brings me to the point of reconciliation in all things.

I would love to read your thoughts.

God bless everyone.

Bob

bobinfaith said:

Hello brothers and sisters;

Why do we tend to separate between teaching of the Bible and confronting our personal human lives? Throughout the Old and New Testaments we can be inspired by encouragement from God's promises and faithfulness. We receive God's mercies, forgiveness and grace when we repent of our sin.

However, the moment we put our Bible aside and face opposition (mostly people, world conditions that we cannot control and an attitude that takes away His glory) the Scriptures seem to fall short.

Books such as the Psalms, Proverbs, the Gospels of Jesus' mission, the Application books such as the Paulines and the Reassurance of Revelation tell us, those whose hearts and lives are broken are the people God is closest to. When we hit rock bottom is when God shows favor.

Psalm 34:18, 18 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. - ESV

Proverbs 3:34, 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he shows favor. - RSV

Adults are like "little children" when our tears are seen by Dad and Mom. They pick us up and love us with a lollipop. God is the same way as He sees us from way up on high and tends to us way down when we hit low and cry out to Him.

Problem is adult believers can be too strong (prideful, bruised egos, underlying motives) for God. He sees everything about us and when we display a disingenuous heart during our low points God cannot reveal His strength.

Please read and meditate carefully the book of James 4:1-6, What is the source of wars and fights among you? Don’t they come from the cravings that are at war within you? 2 You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and don’t receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your evil desires. 4 Adulteresses! Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy. 5 Or do you think it’s without reason the Scripture says that the Spirit who lives in us yearns jealously? 6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. - HCSB

When we hit bottom it can bring out truthfulness, we can come to our senses with humbleness and humility. Our self check can reveal we need to repent where we may fall short with God. We don't always see our sin (from the heart and mind.) When we see ourselves we have that opportunity to turn from self (repentance,) our faith turns us back to Jesus. Repentance equates to faith.

I find this attitude can bring me closer to Jesus by having an honest conversation and confession (prayers) with Him. There's always something that triggers a downfall and broken heart (life, relationships and how we respond to uncontrollable situations.)

I'm not afraid to let my brokenness bring me down (it's going to happen) because I have all the faith God is watching my every move and thought. Time and time again there are always lessons to learn, and time and time again He brings me to the point of reconciliation in all things.

I would love to read your thoughts.

God bless everyone.

Bob

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As Jacob reached the end of his life, he was granted audience to the then most powerful man on earth - Pharaoh. Jacob was at best a displaced shepherd. Pharaoh asked him how old he was in Genesis 47:9. His answer was; "my days have been few and evil". Jacob occupies half of the Chapters of Genesis. His name means "Supplanter" (modern students would simply call him "crook"). His history and walk with God were suspect, but God has chosen him, made His Covenant with him, and blessed him with twelve sons and even wrestled with him without killing him. The "crook" was destined to be "Israel", but he needed to change. And it seems that, like others in the Bible, suffering was the way. Job suffered terribly and when God quizzed him at his lowest point, God asked him 77 questions, but answered not one of them. After Israel's triumphant farewell to Pharaoh's army under the death-waters of the Red Sea, they were just 11 days walk from the Good Land - but God turned them southward - away from the Good Land. In Deuteronomy 8:1-5 we learn why. They needed 40 years of wilderness to "know what was in THEIR hearts". They were so used to being subservient that they would have stood no chance against the Canaanites. They had to "learn war".

And then, the most perfect Man Who ever lived, God incarnate, the sum of all wisdom and power, Jesus, "learned obedience by the things He suffered". It was not that our Lord Jesus didn't know what suffering was for, or that mankind had suffered. It was so that He added the experience of a man's sufferings to the EXPERIENCE of an all-mighty God Who could not be thwarted. And so, as mankind's future was on the knife-edge, and our Lord Jesus, for the first and last time asked to be relieved of what lay before Him, the Man in Whom all the God-Head dwelt bodily, cried out; " My SOUL is sorrowful UNTO DEATH". He was living Matthew 10:28 - being afflicted in Body and Soul in Gehenna. He was being "hurt of the Second Death" as all the wages of sins and sin was heaped upon Him. Twelve hours later He called God "my God" instead of "My Father" - taking His place fully as a Man before a righteous God Who cannot look upon sin and must judge it to the uttermost.

Returning to Jacob, we learn that he blessed Pharaoh. What? The homeless shepherd man daring such an affront to a royal who claimed deity? Yes! For Hebrews tells us in Chapter 7 that Jacob the crook had become greater than Pharaoh. Job learned the reality of resurrection and Israel conquered Canaan in six years. Every army knows this principle. Boot Camp seems like foolishness to the average man. But every one know that the more elite a man becomes in warfare the more he must be able to take pain.

Finally, it is the little grape in Judges 9 whose fruit "cheereth God and man". But to become wine it must be crushed underfoot and subject to a long period of fermenting in the dark. Jacob called his life a "pilgrimage" twice in Genesis 47:9 although his God had promised a certain land as "an everlasting possession". The road from "crook" to king (Rom.4:13) has few laughs and much evil. But we have a God Who watches our every move and counts our every tear. God is a Refiner - and the good thing about a gold refiner is that he never leaves the molten gold while the fire is burning. Well has Romans 8:28 said that IF we love God, He is able to make every, yes, EVERY event of our short and evil lives a profit for us.

bobinfaith said:

I would love to read your thoughts.

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Something that has encouraged me through the years is learning that Scripture isn’t just there to comfort us when life crumbles apart. Scripture is meant to shape our thinking BEFORE we are thrown into those pressures.

The more we let the Word dwell in our hearts the more Christ will shape our response when those times come. That’s why Scripture always points us back to renewing our mind. “Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” ~Romans 12:2. As God’s Word begins to transform how we think, it will begin to change the way we respond to people, situations, and trials.

And God is not rushing us through this process. He’s not looking for perfection. but for people who have hearts that can be taught and will continue to return to Him again and again. “The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.” ~Psalm 37:23-24.

That is so encouraging to me. Even when we stumble or view situations wrong, the Lord is still directing His children and finishing the work He began in us. The more we return to His Word and walk with Him, the more He shapes us to be who He created us to be.

Emmaus said:

And then, the most perfect Man Who ever lived, God incarnate, the sum of all wisdom and power, Jesus, "learned obedience by the things He suffered". It was not that our Lord Jesus didn't know what suffering was for, or that mankind had suffered. It was so that He added the experience of a man's sufferings to the EXPERIENCE of an all-mighty God Who could not be thwarted. And so, as mankind's future was on the knife-edge, and our Lord Jesus, for the first and last time asked to be relieved of what lay before Him, the Man in Whom all the God-Head dwelt bodily, cried out; " My SOUL is sorrowful UNTO DEATH". He was living Matthew 10:28 - being afflicted in Body and Soul in Gehenna. He was being "hurt of the Second Death" as all the wages of sins and sin was heaped upon Him. Twelve hours later He called God "my God" instead of "My Father" - taking His place fully as a Man before a righteous God Who cannot look upon sin and must judge it to the uttermost.

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You are right that God does use hardship to reveal what’s in our hearts. The Bible is full of that pattern repeating itself throughout history. Israel wandered for forty years in dust and wilderness NOT because God lost His map, but because He was revealing their hearts. Scripture tells us God led them through those years “to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart” ~Deuteronomy 8:2. Hard seasons do strip away pride and reveal who we are.

However, when speaking of the suffering of Christ we must keep BOTH feet firmly planted in what Scripture DOES say. Speculation has no home on the cross. The Bible plainly tells us what occurred on that sacred ground. “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” ~1 Peter 3:18. “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree” ~1 Peter 2:24. Jesus took our sins to the cross and experienced the judgment we deserved.

Scripture never mentions Jesus suffering through Gehenna or the second death. In fact the Bible clearly defines the second death as “the lake of fire” ~Revelation 20:14. What is emphasized in the Word of God is Christ standing in our place, taking our sins, and satisfying God’s righteous judgment through His death on the cross.

So hardship CAN humble us and refine us. God often uses dusty trails to develop a rich and deep faith in us. But when we come to the cross of Christ the safest and strongest place to stand is on the very words of Scripture. There is no speculation there and that is where the gospel power stands undefeated.

Emmaus said:

But we have a God Who watches our every move and counts our every tear. God is a Refiner - and the good thing about a gold refiner is that he never leaves the molten gold while the fire is burning.

Click to expand...

David said:

Something that has encouraged me through the years is learning that Scripture isn’t just there to comfort us when life crumbles apart. Scripture is meant to shape our thinking BEFORE we are thrown into those pressures.

Click to expand...

David said:

You are right that God does use hardship to reveal what’s in our hearts. The Bible is full of that pattern repeating itself throughout history. Israel wandered for forty years in dust and wilderness NOT because God lost His map, but because He was revealing their hearts.

Click to expand...

David said:

However, when speaking of the suffering of Christ we must keep BOTH feet firmly planted in what Scripture DOES say. Speculation has no home on the cross.

Click to expand...

Good morning, Emmaus and David;

I appreciate both your sharing and teaching from the Lord. I also posted your snippets that spoke to me this morning.

After I wrote this thread, the very next day we got hit from all sides with circumstances and results that were beyond our control! In our daily relationship with Christ I believe challenges that befall our faith are frequently understood as being within God's sovereign timing and purpose.

The biggest setback was our 40 gallon water heater busted yesterday. Our family had to pull together to move stuff away in our master bedroom from the wall opposite the busted water heater outside. The whole water system is turned off in the house as of yesterday. We had to resort to gallon containers of water from a family member close by. Next, our tax preparer came over and our tax return has a liability that we need to pay. The California Housing sent me a liability letter of our property that I need to settle. Finally, there were a few other setbacks adding fuel to the fire.

It's taken me years to learn that God, who is faithful in our personal relationships does watch our every move. David shared that the Scriptures aren't there just to comfort us when life crumbles. The Scriptures are there to encourage and equip us, that no matter what we're succeeding or failing at, He is with us through it all.

This morning, my family stopped everything, we prayed and gave thanks to the Lord. Afterward we set up appointments for three estimates, we could discern God is moving, slowly but surely, and by tomorrow the new water heater should be replaced.

I'm not saying I'm all gleeful. I'll admit I'm frustrated getting hit from all sides. But knowing God was there and knew this would happen is testing my faith, my disposition and I felt the frustration melt from me and a sense of peace filled me, knowing God will bring resolve to what seems a mountain I was suddenly facing.

God bless you all and thank you for allowing me to share.

Bob

David said:

You are right that God does use hardship to reveal what’s in our hearts. The Bible is full of that pattern repeating itself throughout history. Israel wandered for forty years in dust and wilderness NOT because God lost His map, but because He was revealing their hearts. Scripture tells us God led them through those years “to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart” ~Deuteronomy 8:2. Hard seasons do strip away pride and reveal who we are.

However, when speaking of the suffering of Christ we must keep BOTH feet firmly planted in what Scripture DOES say. Speculation has no home on the cross. The Bible plainly tells us what occurred on that sacred ground. “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” ~1 Peter 3:18. “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree” ~1 Peter 2:24. Jesus took our sins to the cross and experienced the judgment we deserved.

Scripture never mentions Jesus suffering through Gehenna or the second death. In fact the Bible clearly defines the second death as “the lake of fire” ~Revelation 20:14. What is emphasized in the Word of God is Christ standing in our place, taking our sins, and satisfying God’s righteous judgment through His death on the cross.

So hardship CAN humble us and refine us. God often uses dusty trails to develop a rich and deep faith in us. But when we come to the cross of Christ the safest and strongest place to stand is on the very words of Scripture. There is no speculation there and that is where the gospel power stands undefeated.

Click to expand...

You are right. My wording was not clear. I would like though to add a bit, but first let me agree with all you have said.

The common understanding is that our Lord was afflicted by the Jews and Romans. They might be the instruments but consider that Matthew 10:28 points, not at what men can do but what God can do to a sinner. And surely we find this in Isaiah 53;

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

The sinner, or if it is a substitute, must face the wrath of God. If our Lord Jesus is to be a worthy Substitute, He must face what the wicked must face. The death of the soul is stated outright above and physical death is the portion, by law, for transgressors, and all this by a righteous God.

Gehenna, The Lake of Fire and the Second Death are used interchangeably. They are not places, but concepts of what happens to a man who is a sinner. It is, in Isaiah 64 and Mark 9, a state where THEIR worm and THEIR fire do not abate. It is internal. This is born by the word they all stand for - "Perdition". Vine tells us that perdition means NOT annihilation, but "an exquisite lack of well-being". Gehenna, the valley south of Jerusalem, was used to appease Molech by causing children to pass through fire and remained the rubbish dump of the city where fires burnt day and night. It is picture with a view to show what happens to the condemned by God.

And truly, our Lord faced a cup to drink that God must give or withdraw - the death of the soul AND a conscious unending death for the body (for judgment is for the living and only after resurrection, after which resurrection a man cannot die again - Luke 20:36).

I admit that I took too much for granted from some of my readers and readily agree that although our Lord must face the death of His SOUL and His BODY, there is no verse that says He experienced Gehenna in those words

bobinfaith said:

Good morning, Emmaus and David;

I appreciate both your sharing and teaching from the Lord. I also posted your snippets that spoke to me this morning.

After I wrote this thread, the very next day we got hit from all sides with circumstances and results that were beyond our control! In our daily relationship with Christ I believe challenges that befall our faith are frequently understood as being within God's sovereign timing and purpose.

The biggest setback was our 40 gallon water heater busted yesterday. Our family had to pull together to move stuff away in our master bedroom from the wall opposite the busted water heater outside. The whole water system is turned off in the house as of yesterday. We had to resort to gallon containers of water from a family member close by. Next, our tax preparer came over and our tax return has a liability that we need to pay. The California Housing sent me a liability letter of our property that I need to settle. Finally, there were a few other setbacks adding fuel to the fire.

It's taken me years to learn that God, who is faithful in our personal relationships does watch our every move. David shared that the Scriptures aren't there just to comfort us when life crumbles. The Scriptures are there to encourage and equip us, that no matter what we're succeeding or failing at, He is with us through it all.

This morning, my family stopped everything, we prayed and gave thanks to the Lord. Afterward we set up appointments for three estimates, we could discern God is moving, slowly but surely, and by tomorrow the new water heater should be replaced.

I'm not saying I'm all gleeful. I'll admit I'm frustrated getting hit from all sides. But knowing God was there and knew this would happen is testing my faith, my disposition and I felt the frustration melt from me and a sense of peace filled me, knowing God will bring resolve to what seems a mountain I was suddenly facing.

God bless you all and thank you for allowing me to share.

Bob

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It seems like things happen in threes in your part of the world as well.

You acted admirably. This is a very valuable testimony to the young readers ... and old

Emmaus said:

I admit that I took too much for granted from some of my readers and readily agree that although our Lord must face the death of His SOUL and His BODY, there is no verse that says He experienced Gehenna in those words

Click to expand...

You are mixing what Scripture actually says with ideas Scripture never says, and when that happens the truth gets buried in fog.

The Word of God never says Gehenna, the lake of fire, and the second death are merely “concepts.” Jesus spoke of Gehenna as real judgment. He warned of “the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:43-44. Scripture also says plainly, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death” ~Revelation 20:14. God does not speak of judgment as a philosophical condition. He speaks of it as a reality sinners will face.

You also said Christ had to experience what the wicked will experience. The Bible never says that. The Word tells us exactly what happened at Calvary. “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree” ~1 Peter 2:24. Again it says, “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” ~1 Peter 3:18. Scripture points us to the cross where the sin-bearing sacrifice was made. It never says Jesus entered Gehenna or suffered the second death.

Then there is this idea of the “death of the soul.” Scripture does not say the soul of Christ died. When Jesus gave up His life He said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” ~Luke 23:46. His body died. His spirit was entrusted to the Father. That is what the text says.

And the claim that judgment only happens to the living after resurrection ignores what the Word plainly declares. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Death comes first. Judgment follows.

The problem here is not a lack of creativity. The problem is stepping beyond what God has revealed. When the Lord has spoken clearly, adding ideas on top of it does not deepen truth. It clouds it.

The only ground that carries authority is the ground of Scripture itself. Christ bore our sins. Christ suffered once for them. Christ died. And at the cross He declared the work complete: “It is finished” ~John 19:30.

When God has already spoken that plainly, the honest response is not to build theories around it. The honest response is to bow to what He actually said.

David said:

You are mixing what Scripture actually says with ideas Scripture never says, and when that happens the truth gets buried in fog.

The Word of God never says Gehenna, the lake of fire, and the second death are merely “concepts.” Jesus spoke of Gehenna as real judgment. He warned of “the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” ~Mark 9:43-44. Scripture also says plainly, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death” ~Revelation 20:14. God does not speak of judgment as a philosophical condition. He speaks of it as a reality sinners will face.

You also said Christ had to experience what the wicked will experience. The Bible never says that. The Word tells us exactly what happened at Calvary. “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree” ~1 Peter 2:24. Again it says, “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” ~1 Peter 3:18. Scripture points us to the cross where the sin-bearing sacrifice was made. It never says Jesus entered Gehenna or suffered the second death.

Then there is this idea of the “death of the soul.” Scripture does not say the soul of Christ died. When Jesus gave up His life He said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” ~Luke 23:46. His body died. His spirit was entrusted to the Father. That is what the text says.

And the claim that judgment only happens to the living after resurrection ignores what the Word plainly declares. “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” ~Hebrews 9:27. Death comes first. Judgment follows.

The problem here is not a lack of creativity. The problem is stepping beyond what God has revealed. When the Lord has spoken clearly, adding ideas on top of it does not deepen truth. It clouds it.

The only ground that carries authority is the ground of Scripture itself. Christ bore our sins. Christ suffered once for them. Christ died. And at the cross He declared the work complete: “It is finished” ~John 19:30.

When God has already spoken that plainly, the honest response is not to build theories around it. The honest response is to bow to what He actually said.

Click to expand...

If wrong appreciations of scripture "cloud" the meaning, why, we could never get to the bottom of it for the brother who is wrong is clouding the issue. It is my understanding that a Christian starts off as a Babe, both in knowledge and spiritual maturity. Paul admits to thinking like a child at first. Jesus took fishermen to teach the deepest truths. On the way they made mistakes. To deny a man the right to be wrong and/or uninformed is to require perfection from the beginning. This Forum and all the others a open platforms for the uneducated to ask a question or put forth a theory and let learned men like yourself to correct them. To brand them as "clouders of the truth" is counterproductive. And to forbid them kills all learning.

Let's take Hebrews 9:27 for example, seeing as you brought it up. The context is not the sequence of dying and subsequent judgment. If it was instructing us on events surrounding death and judgment, it would tell of a sojourn in Hades, resurrection, a Trumpet and the voice of God, a rapture and a meeting with Christ Who would be sitting on the Bema in the clouds. Much more, it is comparing the Lord Jesus as a SINGLE effective death as compared to Law which required REPETITIVE sacrifices. The judgment here is whether the Father receives Jesus' as He received Aaron's annual atoning sacrifices. That man can only die once is suggested and is correct but not the context. That argument is settled in Romans 5:12-17.

The reason we die is because we inherit Adam's nature - as per the Law of Kinds in Genesis 1:11-12. Romans uses the word "sin" in the singular. We bare no guilt for Adam's transgression, but we suffer the effects of his deadly mistake. But the solution to death is resurrection. If God raises a man, for him to die again would mean that God would have to impute evil like Adam's. Perish this thought. Much more does Luke 20:35-36 settle it. Once resurrected man is like the angels who cannot die and the only one who can influence resurrection life is God Who would not impute evil to a resurrected man.

Finally, all men in the bible who are judged ARE ALIVE.
1. Jesus must appear before the Father to present His blood and Himself as the Firstfruits from the dead. Mary may not touch him for in this capacity. 12 hours later Jesus bade His disciples to "handle Him". He had appeared in the Holy of Holies in heaven and been Judged by the Father. God's decree .... a Name above every name, and a place in God's Throne above the highest heaven.
2. We must be raptured to the clouds and there the Son of Man sits on the Bema. We must give account for our WORKS (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Rapture is AFTER resurrection. We are alive for this assize.
3. Israel must be resurrected, then joined as one nation before being caught back to their land by angels (Ez.37, Matt.24:31). Then comes judgment (Dan.12:1-2) AFTER the Great Tribulation
4. At the "Throne of His Glory" are "all Nations" who are alive after the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-32). Some will go living to the Lake of Fire.
5. 1,000 years later the "rest of the dead" are raised and THEN Judged at the White Throne. Hades is EMPTY for this judgment.

We might have different views but has one of us set out to cloud the issue? No. We debate as brothers in the Lord - knowing that we are imperfect.

Emmaus said:

If wrong appreciations of scripture "cloud" the meaning, why, we could never get to the bottom of it for the brother who is wrong is clouding the issue. It is my understanding that a Christian starts off as a Babe, both in knowledge and spiritual maturity. Paul admits to thinking like a child at first. Jesus took fishermen to teach the deepest truths. On the way they made mistakes. To deny a man the right to be wrong and/or uninformed is to require perfection from the beginning. This Forum and all the others a open platforms for the uneducated to ask a question or put forth a theory and let learned men like yourself to correct them. To brand them as "clouders of the truth" is counterproductive. And to forbid them kills all learning.

Let's take Hebrews 9:27 for example, seeing as you brought it up. The context is not the sequence of dying and subsequent judgment. If it was instructing us on events surrounding death and judgment, it would tell of a sojourn in Hades, resurrection, a Trumpet and the voice of God, a rapture and a meeting with Christ Who would be sitting on the Bema in the clouds. Much more, it is comparing the Lord Jesus as a SINGLE effective death as compared to Law which required REPETITIVE sacrifices. The judgment here is whether the Father receives Jesus' as He received Aaron's annual atoning sacrifices. That man can only die once is suggested and is correct but not the context. That argument is settled in Romans 5:12-17.

The reason we die is because we inherit Adam's nature - as per the Law of Kinds in Genesis 1:11-12. Romans uses the word "sin" in the singular. We bare no guilt for Adam's transgression, but we suffer the effects of his deadly mistake. But the solution to death is resurrection. If God raises a man, for him to die again would mean that God would have to impute evil like Adam's. Perish this thought. Much more does Luke 20:35-36 settle it. Once resurrected man is like the angels who cannot die and the only one who can influence resurrection life is God Who would not impute evil to a resurrected man.

Finally, all men in the bible who are judged ARE ALIVE.
1. Jesus must appear before the Father to present His blood and Himself as the Firstfruits from the dead. Mary may not touch him for in this capacity. 12 hours later Jesus bade His disciples to "handle Him". He had appeared in the Holy of Holies in heaven and been Judged by the Father. God's decree .... a Name above every name, and a place in God's Throne above the highest heaven.
2. We must be raptured to the clouds and there the Son of Man sits on the Bema. We must give account for our WORKS (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Rapture is AFTER resurrection. We are alive for this assize.
3. Israel must be resurrected, then joined as one nation before being caught back to their land by angels (Ez.37, Matt.24:31). Then comes judgment (Dan.12:1-2) AFTER the Great Tribulation
4. At the "Throne of His Glory" are "all Nations" who are alive after the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-32). Some will go living to the Lake of Fire.
5. 1,000 years later the "rest of the dead" are raised and THEN Judged at the White Throne. Hades is EMPTY for this judgment.

We might have different views but has one of us set out to cloud the issue? No. We debate as brothers in the Lord - knowing that we are imperfect.

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Hello Emmaus;

After reading your posts I had to put on my "academic discipline" to understand from the environment you were sharing, but I didn't receive what you posted in order to critique your views, whether you are teaching, sharing your doctrine, debating or just having a conversation in reply to my testimony. I read and appreciated your short post and will leave it at that. But I can see that my thread may have triggered a deeper meaning that you want to share.

When Jesus taught He didn't sub contextualize. He could have, but knew His disciples and kept it simple for the new believer (Christian babe,) seasoned believer and even the nominal Christian. Matthew 5 is a great example.

As a former seminary graduate I was called and trained to serve in the pastoral ministry. One of my roles is Adult, college and youth Bible studies. I use a method called Inductive Study - Observation (what does it say,) the Interpretation (what does it mean) and Application (what does it mean to me.)

As far as the platform for Christian discussion, an uneducated statement or question is "putting the cart before the horse," before healthy debate cannot occur. The foundational understanding of Scripture that hasn't been learned often turns constructive dialogue into mere speculation and instant disagreements. This is not healthy debate.

For those who enjoy debating, whether they understand the fundamentals of a debate is their business. Let them be. As for me I go with the former discipline.

May I ask, are you are an active member in the Catholic Church and do you teach Adult Faith Formation - Bible study? If you are, do you teach in the same manner as your posts?

I was led to author the verb of this thread, What Does The Bible Teach Us About Fallen Humans?
Fallen humans who are sincere about following Jesus will learn the KEY to developing listening ears, first.

God bless you, Emmaus, your family and thank you for reading my reply to your post.

Bob

Emmaus said:

We might have different views but has one of us set out to cloud the issue? No. We debate as brothers in the Lord - knowing that we are imperfect.

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No one here is demanding perfection. People can ask questions and learn. But there is a difference between asking honest questions and continuing to push theories that go beyond what the text actually says.

This board is open for learning, correction, and discussion. What it is not open for is building doctrinal systems from speculation and then defending them when Scripture has already spoken clearly.

You said “let the reader judge.” That is not the standard here. Scripture judges what is true. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” ~2 Timothy 3:16.

And yes, believers grow from babes to maturity. Scripture says that plainly. But growth happens by submitting to the Word, not by constructing frameworks around the text that it never states.

So the standard remains simple. We let the Word of God speak for itself, and the Scriptures themselves judge the truth of what is being taught. That is the ground this forum stands on.